Possible way out of the V.Q. Problem

[Slygar]

I really really think the VQ needs to cost more and have a way higher path cost.

I was going to put a bunch of comparisons here, but you guys probably know what everything is anyways. Just ask yourselves which you *really* fear more: A father of serpents, a Titan, or a Cyclops (which all cost *more* than a VQ, in case you forget) or.. a VQ. Or, just open up the Lich and compare it to the VQ, which costs the same. No stealth, no etherealness, no flight, no regeneration, no free ethereal flying commander killing hippies. Oh yeah, you get -2 lesser fear instead of -4. Whee.

The fact that a VQ is killable does not make it balanced or reasonably priced. I have played using nearly all pretenders, and the VQ is definately the strongest I have found. Yes, there are ways to kill them in MP (the Ai is horrid at it) but they are still way tougher than their cost would show. I say 175 for the chassis, 60 path cost. All those goofy plans to balance it by changing it around seem kind of pointless.

Incidentally, why is the Master Lich so much crappier than the Lich? I think their stats got reversed..

[ May 03, 2004, 21:07: Message edited by: Slygar ]

[AhhhFresh]

Originally posted by Taqwus:
Ghost Kings, however, are not immortal; so a Ghost King SC can pay a fairly hefty price when slain in terms of both magic loss and temporary unavailability. Nor, if memory serves, do they natively fly. They shouldn't be recklessly risked on battles at potentially suicidal odds while expanding at the expense of the local independents.

True, a VQ is superior in many respects to a GK... the main one being Immortality.

However, it wasn't really my intention to debate the merits of a Ghost King vs. a Vampire Queen... I mainly meant that they are similar in that with minimal research/forging they both can slice right through independents with nary a scratch.... and with more research/forging (ie Phoenix Pyre/Soul Vortex + Elemental Armor) they are dominant SC's in the late game who have few weaknesses.

So if one nerfs the VQ to the point of weakness, expect to see the same template moved over to the Ghost King.

[Blitz]

Incidentally, why is the Master Lich so much crappier than the Lich? I think their stats got reversed..

The Master Lich is 20 points cheaper and has THREE misc slots. He's no Vampire Queen, but he's my favorite pretender.

[Blitz]

So if one nerfs the VQ to the point of weakness, expect to see the same template moved over to the Ghost King.

Precicely my point. The GK is almost like a nerfed VQ. It loses the blood magic, Flying, Lifedrain, Immortality, Regeneration and is a whopping 20 points cheaper.

If the VQ were to vanish from existance, you would still see ghost kings out there filling the same role. The GK is a very strong chassis, it's just that most players don't think 20 points is too high a price to pay for flying, immortality, life drain, regeneration, and blood magic.

Hell, I'd pay 20 points just for the flying. The rest is just insanity.

edit: The GK also has a much higher defense value. Please do not try to argue that this equates to immortality or any such nonsense.

[ May 03, 2004, 21:23: Message edited by: Blitz ]

[AhhhFresh]

Originally posted by Blitz:

quote:

---

So if one nerfs the VQ to the point of weakness, expect to see the same template moved over to the Ghost King.

Precicely my point. The GK is almost like a nerfed VQ. It loses the blood magic, Flying, Lifedrain, Immortality, Regeneration and is a whopping 20 points cheaper.

If the VQ were to vanish from existance, you would still see ghost kings out there filling the same role. The GK is a very strong chassis, it's just that most players don't think 20 points is too high a price to pay for flying, immortality, life drain, regeneration, and blood magic.

Hell, I'd pay 20 points just for the flying. The rest is just insanity.

---

I can't really argue with that.

[rabelais]

I think some people in the thread are missing the point.

First of all, taking ethereal away won't do *anything*. The canonical VQ has astral (4-6)

The only clearly effective thing to do is create a new counter to immortality.

Item or rule change? Whatever.

But under the current conditions VQ's are quite seriously broken, particularly for Ermor, who can make a ...

killer flying no melee fatigue AND life draining immortal regenerating (ALL while NAKED!!) SC=norisk and nofear

The lack of risk is the problem, since it creates an artificially munchkinish scenario, something games with deep balance (like this one) would tend to abhor.

Perhaps have the "immortal" god require a delay of three turns, or even a (40 priest level)callback as normal, but no path loss if death was in god's dom?

Still technically abusable, but less so.


Rabe the Van Helsing Intern

[ May 03, 2004, 21:36: Message edited by: rabelais ]

[AhhhFresh]

Originally posted by rabelais:

First of all, taking ethereal away won't do *anything*. The canonical VQ has astral (4-6)

Hmmm... yeah I guess you don't really have to fear Mind Duel as much when you're immortal. Anything that had an Astral high enough to kill it reliably would be a huge loss if you got a unlucky roll. And of course the VQ just comes back next turn.

Didn't really occur to me that immortality is a perfect work around to the vulnerability that's supposed to be inherent in Astral magic.

Though a high Astal VQ, only seems to be "uber" for Ermor... since they have a gajillion(roughly) points to spend on their pretender.

[mivayan]

A ghost king who gets a crossbow bolt in each eye on turn 4 will be much less of a danger compared to a vq in that situation.

Raising new path cost to 80 like the great mother, medusa, phoenix, dragons would not be out of line. It is a loss of 2-3 scales for many builds, and might be enough of a balance.

[ May 03, 2004, 21:53: Message edited by: mivayan ]

[Cainehill]

Someone else mentioned how other SC pretenders wind up having to retire to the laboratory after a while, while the VQ doesn't.

Why does immortality heal all wounds? I thought that was what recuperation was for. I mean - you come back from the dead instantly, AND you heal wounds?

Mythology, folk tales, all those have lots of instances of beings obtaining immortality. And finding out that immortality is a curse - living forever after a hand is crushed, an eye is lost, reduced to a suffering heap of flesh that only wishes it could die.

If the VQ and other immortals had to obtain the Chalice, the high level Nature spell, or whatnot, they might not be so unbalanced. A blind crippled armless VQ isn't so scary, now is it?

(And this highlights another thing that is basically ... dubious, that way that most pretenders wind up cripples. C'mon! They're on the verge of godhood!)

Either immortality shouldn't heal wounds, or all pretenders should have a slow form of recuperation.

Edit : And of all the immortals, I'd say the VQ was still the most broken - all others have some fairly heavy weaknesses. The bog mummy and the lichs have vulnerability to fire, the Phoenix is so fragile and so limitted in item slots / melee. By contrast, the VQ has no vulnerabilities (even though vampires were commonly vulnerable to sunlight, silver, running water, and yes, fire.

Side note : Are there really supposed to be two bog mummies for Jotunheim, one immortal and the other not?

[ May 03, 2004, 22:04: Message edited by: Cainehill ]

[Norfleet]

Originally posted by Blitz:
Precicely my point. The GK is almost like a nerfed VQ. It loses the blood magic, Flying, Lifedrain, Immortality, Regeneration and is a whopping 20 points cheaper.

It also has far cheaper paths: If you're not willing to screw over your scales to get the high and diverse magics needed to create a really heavyweight SC, you can go the GK route instead, and either get the same scales with higher paths, or more paths with the same scales. If the VQ were significantly altered, such as losing a Misc slot, I'd be dumping it in favor of the GK. The lifedrain is a minor matter, as the VQ loses its lifedrain when given a weapon, which you will do shortly anyway, just to prevent empty slots from picking up cursed items. The blood magic is mostly meaningless on the VQ, as blood is by far the cheapest path to empower in, and provides absolutely no benefit in combat, the main reason why you'd take a VQ: To have the best possible base chassis for building a monster SC out of it. In exchange, you basically get squat all as far as dominion strength(an unexceptional 2), and blessing bases(death/blood, neither of which are strong blessing material). You're going to have to pay for any extras yourself. While a potent defensive weapon, as an attacker, the VQ is somewhat less impressive, as immortality is gone in enemy dominion, and the chassis itself is physically frail, having a mere 23 base HP.

edit: The GK also has a much higher defense value. Please do not try to argue that this equates to immortality or any such nonsense.

This is indeed not "equivalent" to immortality, but it's definitely a feather in the cap of somebody taking the GK route instead. Sure, it's not a substitute for immortality, but the lower chassis cost, combined with the lower path cost, will let you afford better defensive paths on top of that.