Supercombattant pretenders....what about... - Page 4

Sammual · #31 November 3rd, 2003, 03:12 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by johan osterman:
Without promising anything making the AI favourably wieght sacred or armored troops when recruiting might be a candidate for an improvement, for example.

Woot!

Sammual

Aristoteles · #32 November 3rd, 2003, 03:29 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by johan osterman:

quote:
Originally posted by Mortifer:

This means that the hella lot of Posts / suggestions about 'how to improve the strategic AI' were totally pointless?

The AI thread isnt pointless, if nothing else it has moved form: the AI sucks, it must be improved, to a list of specific complaints. The list is actually helpfull and much less irritating than the orginal the AI sucks Posts. Without promising anything making the AI favourably wieght sacred or armored troops when recruiting might be a candidate for an improvement, for example.

johan many of us are trying to help to you guys, I have made that list after 15 games with the demo. All of those were played for 40 turns, and I've posted my experience.

Hopefully the AI scripter can make improvements in those things on the list. We don't need any promises, we won't demand anything..at least me.
I love this game, and I want to help to you to make it even lot better, via a lot better strategic AI.

better strategic AI -> better, more enjoyable SP -> happier players & fans.

I think this is all clear.

DominionsFan · #33 November 3rd, 2003, 07:28 PM

Yup, trollish Posts are gone (the ai sucks etc.), and very good suggestions can be found now in the AI thread.
Just check them out and try to solve the problems with it.

Nagot Gick Fel · #34 November 3rd, 2003, 08:31 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Mortifer:

quote:
Originally posted by Nagot Gick Fel:
JO already said JK felt rather reluctant to do further work on the AI, and you keep on pestering him to answer to your AI worries.

Where did you read about this? I am kinda shocked by this statement.

Actually that was KO, not JO, and he wrote:

Quote:

I think the major problem with diplo AI is that I don't know anything about AI coding and JK is bored by it (he made the AI so he should know).

That was in the "What did I missed from Dom I.? -> DIPLOMACY!" thread, page #5.

Quote:

Also what is your point at all? I don't understad you. We all know that you are a multiplayer, and no one cares about this. No one was whining about that.

Simple: there are still many bugs and balance issues in the game that need to be solved, these affect both SP and MP play, and should be solved first. Improving the AI will certainly require more much time than the bug/balance fixes and will mainly benefit to the SP players. How is it so difficult to understand?

Quote:

You are constantly flaming the people, who trying to make suggestions about the strategic AI.

I apologize to anyone who got the impression I flamed him, as that wasn't my intent. BTW, I spent 30 minutes to locate the post by KO that I quoted above, so please return the favor and point the threads where I did flame these persons. I doubt you'll find any, bar this one, to support your "constantly" claim. Also note the order of events in this very thread that led to the present discussion:

Someone: it's so easy to abuse the AI with an SC pretender in SP, fix this asap.

Me: it's not that important, there are workarounds to this:
(1) if you don't want to abuse the AI, just don't abuse the AI - IOW, don't field a SC pretender.
(2) edit the map files to improve the AI starting position.
(Note: no flames)

Someone: Improving the AI is VERY important. Nagot you're selfish. Angry smileys.
(Note: no argument. First flame)

Me: but there are workarounds! Try them out.
(Note: still no flames from me)

Someone: Nagot you're wrong. AI is very important regardless of your suggestion. You're living in the past.
(Note: More flames)

Me: replying (with arguments) in the same sarcastic tone (past -> future), so flame for flame. But note I wrote "I truly hope IW will prove me wrong".

So, who's to blame for the flames?

Quote:

I think that at least 60% of the players would be lot happier with a better strategical AI.

I sure would. I'd love to see a really good AI. But again, I think there are higher priorities. I explained the why and the how.

Quote:

I haven't seen a constructive post from you about the strategical AI,

You're kidding, right? I explained how to script the map files to provide easy workarounds to a deficient AI, and these workarounds are available NOW! The AI doesn't equip his pretender? Script. He doesn't build havy troops? Script. He always pick a crappy dominion? Script. He doesn't build fortresses? Script. Has anyone ever given a more constructive contribution that that? Than something that works NOW, as opposed to an improved AI that we may probably not see in a foreseeable future? I doubt it.

DominionsFan · #35 November 3rd, 2003, 08:40 PM

Hey Nagot, can't you stop plz?
IMHO improving the strategic AI. should be the #1. on the priority list. It is very important, and no I won't and can't script.
Scripts wont raise the quality of the AI.

Alneyan · #36 November 3rd, 2003, 08:55 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by DominionsFAN:
Hey Nagot, can't you stop plz?
IMHO improving the strategic AI. should be the #1. on the priority list. It is very important, and no I won't and can't script.
Scripts wont raise the quality of the AI.

Some AIs (at least some of them, I don't know for sure about Dominions) are mostly made of scripts, so they will definitively raise the quality of the AI. (If done right that is) However, you do need to know how to use them, which is another matter altogether. And Nagot can very well say what he thinks, especially as he explains why he things so and even gives ways to improve the situation in the current state. I, for one, won't ask you more Nagot.

Not quite though. I do have a question for you: how would you write a script to make the AI build more heavy troops? I mean, what file would you tweak? I don't ask you to explain how you would write the script though.

Or did I miss this part?

Pocus · #37 November 3rd, 2003, 09:10 PM

Alas to be fair, you can only script initial starting positions for the AI. Sure, it dont differs from 99% of our so called strategy games, where the AI is given numerical advantages, but thats all.

DominionsFan · #38 November 3rd, 2003, 09:33 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Alneyan:

quote:
Originally posted by DominionsFAN:
Hey Nagot, can't you stop plz?
IMHO improving the strategic AI. should be the #1. on the priority list. It is very important, and no I won't and can't script.
Scripts wont raise the quality of the AI.

Some AIs (at least some of them, I don't know for sure about Dominions) are mostly made of scripts, so they will definitively raise the quality of the AI. (If done right that is) However, you do need to know how to use them, which is another matter altogether. And Nagot can very well say what he thinks, especially as he explains why he things so and even gives ways to improve the situation in the current state. I, for one, won't ask you more Nagot.

Not quite though. I do have a question for you: how would you write a script to make the AI build more heavy troops? I mean, what file would you tweak? I don't ask you to explain how you would write the script though. Or did I miss this part?

This is ridicolous. Let the devs to upgrade the AI plz. Scripting map files won't help. The AI will be the same. Yes it will offer a bigger challange, but the core of the AI won't change.

also WHO CAN SCRIPT LIKE THAT?

licker · #39 November 3rd, 2003, 09:45 PM

I dunno about the rest of you, but it seems to me that bugs and balance will be the first things addressed, mostly becasue they are easier to tackle from a codeing standpoint (or in the case of difficult bugs, more important to fix).

Something that is lost in this discussion is that in the process of fixing these bugs, and redoing some balance issues the AI may get a boost from no longer suffereing due to an erronious or poor initial design. That said, improving the AI (*not simply making difficult maps) should always be in the mind of the players and developers, and I'd guess that Illwinter is interested in continuing to improve the entire game, including the AI.

Besides, the fact remains that the majority of game time is going to be SP, I'd estimate it at 80%. And while its nice to say things like 'don't cheese the AI if you don't want to' what I really want is for the AI to be able to 'cheese' me.

DominionsFan · #40 November 3rd, 2003, 09:49 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by licker:
I dunno about the rest of you, but it seems to me that bugs and balance will be the first things addressed, mostly becasue they are easier to tackle from a codeing standpoint (or in the case of difficult bugs, more important to fix).

Something that is lost in this discussion is that in the process of fixing these bugs, and redoing some balance issues the AI may get a boost from no longer suffereing due to an erronious or poor initial design. That said, improving the AI (*not simply making difficult maps) should always be in the mind of the players and developers, and I'd guess that Illwinter is interested in continuing to improve the entire game, including the AI.

Besides, the fact remains that the majority of game time is going to be SP, I'd estimate it at 80%. And while its nice to say things like 'don't cheese the AI if you don't want to' what I really want is for the AI to be able to 'cheese' me.

Yup. Bug fixing is always on the top of the list. Balancing as well. In our case the strat. AI is very important, as you've said most of the games will be SP. That is why upgrading the AI is on the top of the list in Doms II.