MP Game - Graeme's New Game

[Graeme Dice]

Originally posted by Wendigo:
So you believe that you can insult him in public and he has no right to defend himself? This is bull**** Graeme. If you do not want him in your game say so without going into name calling.

Which, as you'll notice, is exactly what I did until people started telling me that I should let him in. I simply sent him a PM that he wasn't welcome, and confirmed that he was not playing in the game before that.

Besides, nothing of what went on in that game amounts to cheating acording to the stuff that has been displayed in the relevant threads.

Yes, it does qualify as cheating to me, and I really don't want to have to discuss it any further.

-So he joined a game under a different alias, so what? is that cheating in your book?

Joining under an alias falls into a very gray area. Lying about your identity when asked about it in order to gain information on a game _is_ cheating.

-So he got some info out of SB regarding the game in a chat forum? nobody is to blame from that save SB that did not keep his mouth shut, he was not tortured for that info, right?
Is that cheating?

Yes, it is cheating, since he lied about being the player in the game. It was Norfleet's responsibility to inform people that he was playing, and he failed to do so. That makes him a cheater.

If NF got that info out of some other player in the game via an in-game backstab would that have amounted to cheating?

No, since that wouldn't have been using his alias to cover his true identity.

You cannot make a distinction between in-game lying & out-of-game lying when diplomacy is most often than not done via e-mail.

Of course you can. He didn't disguise his plans in the game, he lied about even being a player in the game.

A couple lies however, is _not_ cheating in a game that allows diplomacy. Whether those lies were in-game or not is irrelevant so long as you do not set in stone that all diplomacy must be conducted via the in-game messaging.

He lied about his identity when specifically asked about it. He lied about it in a situation where he should have specifically stated that he was playing in the game.

So, drop the name calling. If you do not trust NF, just say so & move on, but do not be surprised if the guy shows up to defend himself.

If you read the thread, you'd notice that that is exactly what I did. I didn't even explain myself until some person decided that I should have to defend my decision to exclude Norfleet.

[Rainbow]

Graeme,

I realize you're probably a bit suspicious about people you don't know joining your game right now, but I would like to join your game as Marignon if that alright?

/Rainbow

[Reverend Zombie]

A question on method:

how does one e-mail a Pretender? (i.e., where do I find a Pretender in the Dominions2 folder?)

[Graeme Dice]

Originally posted by Reverend Zombie:
how does one e-mail a Pretender? (i.e., where do I find a Pretender in the Dominions2 folder?)

It is in the newlords directory, as the .2h file with the name of your nation.

[Wendigo]

>Yes, it does qualify as cheating to me, and I really don't want to have to discuss it any further.

Yet you are. And with those personal attacks you are not only soiling his reputation, but yours also. You could have simply said 'I have no fun playing with NF' instead of insulting him, by calling him a cheater.

The 'to me' part of your answer is the key of the issue, you are confusing facts with opinions, you are mixing rules & personal ethics. He did not break any rule (either explicit or implicit), thus he did _not_ cheat. You do not consider his 2 lies ethic, fine, but that does not make him a cheater and your insistence on using the term harms you as much as it harms him.

>Joining under an alias falls into a very gray area. Lying about your identity when asked about it in order to gain information on a game _is_ cheating.

Why? why should he have admitted so? so that his opponents could gang him 6on1 and then pat each others' backs after the kill? I fail to see why he should admit so while the game is running, and such admitance would only hurt his position. We all have different opinions on what is ethic or not in the game but 'cheating' is a totally different issue & the distinction should be clear.


me:
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-So he got some info out of SB regarding the game in a chat forum? nobody is to blame from that save SB that did not keep his mouth shut, he was not tortured for that info, right?
Is that cheating?
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>Yes, it is cheating, since he lied about being the player in the game. It was Norfleet's responsibility to inform people that he was playing, and he failed to do so. That makes him a cheater.

I notice that you did not answer my 2nd question. But I will rephrase it and ask it again: Say player X, Y & Z are in the same game, and in a game related thread X tells Y "do not attack me, I am weak, attack Z instead who is the biggest threat" with this being a lie. Would this be 'cheating'?

me:
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You cannot make a distinction between in-game lying & out-of-game lying when diplomacy is most often than not done via e-mail.
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>Of course you can. He didn't disguise his plans in the game, he lied about even being a player in the game.

So you can lie in Messages, you can lie in e-mail but you cannot lie in a thread about the game in a forum or chat room? Where's that rule written? what kind of logic do you use to draw the line?

>He lied about his identity when specifically asked about it. He lied about it in a situation where he should have specifically stated that he was playing in the game.

Why should he? You have yet to back this with a single reason that doesn't fall in the field of personal ethics.

Frankly, drop it. It hurts his reputation, it hurts the atmosphear of this forum, and it hurts you by giving the image of someone engaged in a personal vendetta with no solid ground to be based on. At least in my eyes as an outsider.

[Graeme Dice]

Originally posted by Wendigo:
Yet you are. And with those personal attacks you are not only soiling his reputation, but yours also. You could have simply said 'I have no fun playing with NF' instead of insulting him, by calling him a cheater.

I called him a cheater because he _cheated_. I _tried_ to let the issue die in this thread, but Norfleet had to show up and be a patronizing ******* _before_ I accused him of being a cheater in this thread.

You do not consider his 2 lies ethic, fine, but that does not make him a cheater and your insistence on using the term harms you as much as it harms him.

Behaving in an unethical manner _is_ cheating. To cheat is to influence or lead by deceit, trick, or artifice, or to practice fraud or trickery.

Say player X, Y & Z are in the same game, and in a game related thread X tells Y "do not attack me, I am weak, attack Z instead who is the biggest threat" with this being a lie. Would this be 'cheating'?

Not at all, since the player isn't trying to disguise their identity. A player's identity is entirely outside the scope of in-game information.

So you can lie in Messages, you can lie in e-mail but you cannot lie in a thread about the game in a forum or chat room? Where's that rule written? what kind of logic do you use to draw the line?

A player's identity is not in-game information about the strength of a nation or alliances.

Why should he? You have yet to back this with a single reason that doesn't fall in the field of personal ethics.

Cheating is part of personal ethics. You cannot separate the two.

Frankly, drop it. It hurts his reputation, it hurts the atmosphear of this forum, and it hurts you by giving the image of someone engaged in a personal vendetta with no solid ground to be based on. At least in my eyes as an outsider.

Quite frankly, I don't really care if it hurts his reputation, since he does a good enough job of that by himself.

[ June 01, 2004, 18:49: Message edited by: Graeme Dice ]

[Tuidjy]

If it is not too late, I'd like to play Marignon.
I have never played them, but Hell, I'd like to
give them a try :-)

[Reverend Zombie]

Originally posted by Graeme Dice:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Reverend Zombie:
how does one e-mail a Pretender? (i.e., where do I find a Pretender in the Dominions2 folder?)

It is in the newlords directory, as the .2h file with the name of your nation.

---

Thanks!

[Wendigo]

To cheat is to influence or lead by deceit, trick, or artifice, or to practice fraud or trickery.

With such a broad definition of cheating any single lie/backstab in diplomacy would qualify as tricking the opposition, and ergo 'cheating'. That would be ridiculous.

Equaling cheating to 'breaking the game rules' makes much more sense in our context as gamers.

A player's identity is not in-game information about the strength of a nation or alliances.

Yet when the game was created it was not requested that every player should reveal his personal information, players joined using their aliases instead. Thus, no rule was broken by hidding this, nor had he any obligation to reveal it just because an opponent asked.

Cheating is part of personal ethics. You cannot separate the two.

Of course you can separate personnal ethics & cheating.

Setting up a big alliance to gang on a neighbour 6 on 1 giving him no chance is something I would not be confortable with ethic-wise, yet it would not be cheating. Conversely, if I am the one in the receiving end of such alliance I will moan & ***** a bit about unfairness, but I will not call my opponents cheaters.

[Sly Frog]

Originally posted by Wendigo:
[QB] Yet you are. And with those personal attacks you are not only soiling his reputation, but yours also. You could have simply said 'I have no fun playing with NF' instead of insulting him, by calling him a cheater.

I think this is a little unfair to Graeme. I read the thread from the first post forward. It's pretty clear that Norfleet knew that he was not wanted (or at least should have known based on the other threads he's participated in, where he was told he was not wanted). Then, like a pretentious smart ***, he tried to take a side in Graeme's game. I was expecting a big blow out fight, but in fact, all Graeme did was ignore Norfleet, setting up a nation list that did not include him. It was only after Graeme was specifically called out that he gave his reasoning; he did not want to play with a cheater.

I'm actually suprised at Graeme's restraint, and think he handled it pretty well. If you want him to lie as to why he does not want to play with Norfleet when he is asked, that's your concern.