Battlestar Galactica **Spoilers** discussion

[geoschmo]

When the Pegasus took on the two basestars it was with nuclear missles. Of course the clip they showed of the missles launching looked like the Saturn V third stage separatign from stage two. QUite comical looking, and it didn't help that they showed the same 2 seconds over and over about 12 times in a single 30 second segment.

[Cheeze]

Geo, you're right, but that's not the episode I was referencing.

Repeating the same scenes over and over again..and we still loved that show. You always knew the viper would hit that middle cylon raider and the other two would break right and left. And the cylons would always fall for the "hit the brakes and watch them fly right by us" manuever, even looking over their shoulders when they should have been trying to turn their ship.

Ah, the memories....

EDIT POST: I like how some of the other ships made it to this new movie. I expected that one ship to say "Colonial Movers: We Move Anywhere". I was surprised the botannical ship was destroyed. I expected it to escape, as there was one in the series fleet. That was probably deliberate.

[ December 11, 2003, 23:17: Message edited by: Cheeze ]

[Patroklos]

Hey,

I was also hoping to see a few more military ships escape. At the end of Part one Adama sends a message to the fleet he tells them to regroup at the anchorage for a counterattack. Now I wasn't expecting a counterattack to actually happen, nor was I was expecting to see any more battlestars (they said 30 were destroyed off the bat and that was only 1/3 of the fleet. 90 BATTLESTARS!!!) but what about the rest. Not a single Cruiser, Destoyer, or Frigate escaped? If I remember correctly in the original series there were some smaller warships present, many of them participated in the figher defence. How about some left over fighters? As it is I don't thing the Galactica could have escaped with any more than a wing of 30 odd fighters, and at least 10 were already destroyed. They are going to run out.

And why does Adama care what the "President" says. For one, she is 34th in line, which is like Monica Lewinski taking power. And she talks alot about democracy, but I am pretty sure an education minister is an appointed position.

-Pat

[Starhawk]

Originally posted by Patroklos:
Hey,

I was also hoping to see a few more military ships escape. At the end of Part one Adama sends a message to the fleet he tells them to regroup at the anchorage for a counterattack. Now I wasn't expecting a counterattack to actually happen, nor was I was expecting to see any more battlestars (they said 30 were destroyed off the bat and that was only 1/3 of the fleet. 90 BATTLESTARS!!!) but what about the rest. Not a single Cruiser, Destoyer, or Frigate escaped? If I remember correctly in the original series there were some smaller warships present, many of them participated in the figher defence. How about some left over fighters? As it is I don't thing the Galactica could have escaped with any more than a wing of 30 odd fighters, and at least 10 were already destroyed. They are going to run out.

And why does Adama care what the "President" says. For one, she is 34th in line, which is like Monica Lewinski taking power. And she talks alot about democracy, but I am pretty sure an education minister is an appointed position.

-Pat

Actually the entire colonial fleet consisted of 120 battlestars with 240 fighter squadrons (2 per ship unless the third gen battlestars could hold more) the approximate manpower was 245,000 men and women in the fleet. Frigates, destroyers, and cruisers were probobly considered absolete being that a battlestar (especially the third gen battlestars which we sadly didn't see any of) would be a turbo charged battleship with the ability to launch the advanced viper mark 7s and besides that in space a battleship with intercept fighters would probobly be better then a small ship.

As for additional warships and surviving fighters if you look very closely at the fleet of survivor ships when boomer makes her jump into the sector you see what looks to be at least three seperate fighter Groups flying CAP around the area of the fleet, some of them look like the mark 7s while others look kind of like 2s. So I think these fighters probobly just came aboard Galactica when the refugee fleet arrived because if you remember all of Galactica's mark 7s were destroyed yet in the final battle scene we see a conisderable number of 2s and 7s launching to engage the Cylon raiders at the Galactia perimiter. So perhaps they made reference to it when that guy was talking to Baltar and mentioned having to refitt the new vipers.
If Galactica was fully loaded it could hold an approximate 40 to 60 vipers depending on how cramped they packed her.
And is it just me or did some of those Viper's look different from both the Mark 7s and 2s? Maybe some older fighters managed to link up with the Civilian fleet??
Oh and those aren't lasers the fighter use they are railguns most likely, as reffered to when CPO Tyrol said "She's fully loaded and fueled sir" or something like that when telling Adama about his old Viper. Lasers don't count as munitions.

Now on to the Galactica and those who were disapointed by her firepower, I don't think she was actually comitting herself to the fight, as her "main guns" the big ones that fired slower then those rapid deck guns seemed to fire HE shells which would be more then enough to blow a hole in a base star's armor if she was trying to kill one.

And BTW NO the Galactica DOES NOT have shields, that was the effect of the Nuke going off, as even Adama said "The hull plating caught most of the hard stuff". So it is most likely that the Galactica has ablative armor or at least some type of reactive armor.

Oh and as to why Adama respects the president, easy she is now rightfully the president and is a very in charge person so unless he had her shot he wouldn't be able to come up with a good reason to take over.

Remeber this Adama is not the "wiseman/godlike know it all/ spiritual guide/ moses/ noah" that the original was he is a much more realistic MILITARY commander who thinks in military terms and the President is the best choice for controling the civvie population.


P.S. I do hope if they get a full series out we get to see the Battlestar Pegusus and hopefully she'll be one of the New Battlestars that was replacing the second gen Galactica type because I'd love to see one of them. And it would also be cool if they actually had her SURVIVE in the series so that we get to see some more kickass space battles between Battlestars and Basestars.


P.P.S. Nope no hostility at all Atrocities I just really didn't like the New Outer Limits and even thinking about it sometimes ticks me off .

Now as to the Cylons, they did explain it but it was more in the way the Cylons acted then in the "spoken" script so since I often read into things a great deal it seemed obvious to me I meant no offense to those of you who didn't quite get it.

[ December 12, 2003, 09:45: Message edited by: Starhawk ]

[Patroklos]

Assuming smaller ship classes are obsolete is just something the AI thinks . The fact is smaller ships are normally cheaper and have very different roles than something the size of the Galactica. Obviously, if I fitted a battlecruiser with the weapons of the more advanced battlestars you talk about then it would probobly make mincemeat of the Galactica. How about an Unrep or support ship? Unsupported battleships are useless.

And I think most military leaders disregard the civilian chain of command sucession after 20 heartbeats, and rightfully so. Hell, I bet Adamas G-Rate is even higher than the "Prez." In all seriousness if they reallyn want to be democratic they need to hold an election. Civilians have nothing better to do, except die of course.

-Pat

[ December 12, 2003, 11:55: Message edited by: Patroklos ]

[Patroklos]

Well then please explain why evey navy since the beginning of time up too now has all range of combatants. Obviously this is sea versus space, but similarities are plenty. Remember what I said, I battlecruiser with modern weapons, versus a Galactica with obviously less than up to date weaponry (hence decommissioning). And As far as our fighting roles, you need smaller ships for decoys, screening, tactical manuever and other things. And in real life ship cost is exponential, that is as tonage goes up cost rises exponentially. So several smaller ships would be cheaper, and together probobly have more firepower. Let alone the fact that one large ship can only be in one place at one time.

Then of course the question of the navel nomenclature in their universe comes up. What is a Battlestar? Is it an uber battleship, a heavy carrier, or an assault carrier? I say the battlestar is an assault carrier, ie a vessel that mixes carrier function with main battery weaponry. Jack of all trades, master of none. It must take large amounts of space and support operate fighters, and that obviously detracts from ship to ship fighting characteristics.

I do not agree with you SEIV ship construction strategy. Once again, I can build enough battlecruisers to have the same number of weapons as your fewer Dreadnoughts. The diferance is while you are chasing half my fleet my other half has the option of bypassing you and devestating your colonies. The rule isn't to have the most, it is to BE THERE with the most. Besides, your analogy assumes my battlecruisers don't have dedicated carriers that would be much more efficient at the carrier funtion and the ad hoc Galactica. I might even have a PDC dedicated ship (I usually do) to swat your fighters out of the sky on mass. And since we are talking about Battlestars versus smaller craft, all your dreadnaughts would be filled halfway with hanger bays.

On an offshoot, a Battlestar carrying only two squadrons is an extreme waste of space. Each of its side slung hanger bays are the size of a Nimitz carrier, and their fighters are half the size of our aircraft. They could probobly hold hundreds of Vipers.

-Pat

[Loser]

As long as a SE IV design doctrine tangent as started, I feel obligated to point out that the larger mounts available for Battleships and Dreadnaughts are very, very potent.

Personally, I usually skip the Dread and jump straight from Battleship to Baseship, but that could be a flaw in my methods.

[Starhawk]

Originally posted by Patroklos:
Well then please explain why evey navy since the beginning of time up too now has all range of combatants. Obviously this is sea versus space, but similarities are plenty. Remember what I said, I battlecruiser with modern weapons, versus a Galactica with obviously less than up to date weaponry (hence decommissioning). And As far as our fighting roles, you need smaller ships for decoys, screening, tactical manuever and other things. And in real life ship cost is exponential, that is as tonage goes up cost rises exponentially. So several smaller ships would be cheaper, and together probobly have more firepower. Let alone the fact that one large ship can only be in one place at one time.

Then of course the question of the navel nomenclature in their universe comes up. What is a Battlestar? Is it an uber battleship, a heavy carrier, or an assault carrier? I say the battlestar is an assault carrier, ie a vessel that mixes carrier function with main battery weaponry. Jack of all trades, master of none. It must take large amounts of space and support operate fighters, and that obviously detracts from ship to ship fighting characteristics.

I do not agree with you SEIV ship construction strategy. Once again, I can build enough battlecruisers to have the same number of weapons as your fewer Dreadnoughts. The diferance is while you are chasing half my fleet my other half has the option of bypassing you and devestating your colonies. The rule isn't to have the most, it is to BE THERE with the most. Besides, your analogy assumes my battlecruisers don't have dedicated carriers that would be much more efficient at the carrier funtion and the ad hoc Galactica. I might even have a PDC dedicated ship (I usually do) to swat your fighters out of the sky on mass. And since we are talking about Battlestars versus smaller craft, all your dreadnaughts would be filled halfway with hanger bays.

On an offshoot, a Battlestar carrying only two squadrons is an extreme waste of space. Each of its side slung hanger bays are the size of a Nimitz carrier, and their fighters are half the size of our aircraft. They could probobly hold hundreds of Vipers.

-Pat

Well okay your right if the Galactica Class warship has only 2 squadrons of 20 Vipers it would be a waste I'm just telling you what I saw on the new BG web site. And assuming she has other craft such as shuttles and disaster releif ships they would take up some of those launch bays space which is maybe why there are only 2 squadrons.
The "Last Galactica" squadron consisted of only 20 Mark 7 Vipers and 1 Raptor class Recon ship so maybe that is what they based their two squadron analogy on.

And I was using the reference to a MODERN battlestar vs a MODERN battlecruiser the BC would be blown apart as the Battlestar obviously has highly resilliant armor and weapons systems.

Now as to your reference to wet navies having many ranges of combatant you are somewhat correct. However if you look back throughout history ships such as 18th century Sloops and Frigates were NOT front line warships, they were raiders and light combatants and in fleet actions they MAY have been messenger ships. The only TRUE front line world changing warship of the day was the Ship of the Line which was slow and unwealdy thus it required frigates to be recon ships, however if you put a frigate vs a SOL the SoL would blow the frigate apart in one broadside.
Modern Navies have only two real surface combatants that are used regularly Destroyers for primary assault and Frigates for Patrol and interdiction missions. Cruisers never leave the protection of a Carrier battlegroup and their main role is to protect the carrier because it has no guns of it's own while the destroyer acts as a Picket ship for the battlegroup and the frigate acts as a close in defense ship.

Now the Battlestar has advanced sensors so it really doesn't need a picket ship, it has FTL communications which means it doesn't need a messenger sloop. It has it's own close in point defense guns which removes the frigates, it has heavy missile tubes which we have yet to see in action which takes over the role of a cruiser and destroyer, she has rail cannons which are obviously designed for powerful impact weapons which takes the role of a cruiser or battleship and she has her own fighter compliment which removes the need for a dedicated carrier ship.
Okay and as to your reference of BEING there, with an FTL jump drive the Galactica or any battlestar could BE THERE instantly.


Now to your reference of the SEIV you could get your battlecruisers and go around my fleet...hardly as I blockade all warp points into my space with a powerful fleet (when the 100 turns lets me) and a friend of mine places 4 space bases ranging from battlestation to starbase around every warp point that leads to his systems, now these have MASSIVE mounts while your cruiser can only have a HEAVY so if I throw a few dreadnoughts to bulster a defense like that your BCs are dead.

And a Dreadnought can carry more weapons and can carry MASSIVE weapons as apposed to your heavy which naturally gives my dreadnought more firepower, I usually build my ships to be heavy on the defense which means my dreads could have more armor and shields then your BC and still have the same number of guns so if I had six dreadnoughts against your 12 or MORE battlecruisers I'd win in a streight fight.
I too bulster my fleet with Point Defense ships and in the full game I garantee I will bolster them with carriers and SOME dreadnoughts fitted with fighter bays to swat your fighters out of my way while I bring my big guns to bear and turn your BCs into molten slag.

Also if my colonies are heavily defended your BCs might not have the strength to beat the colony before a reinforcement force can arrive so while my dreadnoughts are engaging and destroying the other half of your fleet your remaining half might find it's self cut off in enemy space. And your assuming there wouldn't be mines and weapons platforms around my worlds to prevent just such a tactic as you describe.

And another thing....your neglecting that I could more easily devestate your colonies as if I engage that half of your fleet it's gonna die easy.
Then when my dreadnoughts meet your colonies they'd have an easier time with your defenses then your battlecruisers would have with mine simply do to the sheer firepower bonuses. And since i use a more battlegroup style arrangement for my fleets instead of simply bulking my whole fleet together I'd send half my fleet to pursue each HALF of your fleet, and my fleets would win most likely.

P.S. When I say I have a battlegroup arrangment usually what I mean is that I have a "main fleet" or two depending on the circumstances and resources available and several fast reactionary forces deployed throughout my space.
So if your BCs met up with a few of my reaction forces you may win through sheer numbers but you'd take losses before you even reach my colonies, and that would be after whatever defenses you face at the warp points that come between your "avoiding" my fleet and my space.

[ December 12, 2003, 14:29: Message edited by: Starhawk ]

[Nodachi]

About the only two fighter squadrons per ship issue, I'd like to point out that this was during peacetime. I think it quite likely that if the colonies were on a full war footing then each ship would carry more fighters. Given the fact that it was peacetime with no enemy in sight, the colonies were maintaining a huge fleet considering that there were only 12 worlds to protect.

As to how to classify what kind of ship the Galactica is, that's easy, it's a Battlestar. You can't really classify it by our military standards. Support ships? The show seems to imply that it doesn't need any and I'm willing to go with that. The ship is huge and we've only seen a few locations on board.

Finally, tactics. Why aren't they using more smaller ships? I think this probably comes down to one thing, money. FTL engines must be quite expensive or else most ships would have them. Look at how many ships were left behind by Colonial One. A warship would almost have to have them in order to be effective in that kind of theater of operations. This would lead back to building giant ships and using a different tactical doctrine than what we're used to.

[Loser]

Minor note, Starhawk. Cruisers and Battle Cruisers in stock SE IV use the Large Mount. Battleships and Dreadnaughts use the Heavy Mount. And among ships only Baseships use the Massive Mount