Mod: Conceptual Balance Mod 1.6

[kianduatha]

My first comment seems like a lot of those changes are simply counter to the style of CBM as a whole--QM doesn't like changing mage paths.

Regarding Abysia...at most you would want to make Warlock Apprentices recruit anywhere, and that changes the whole feel of the nation. Furthermore, you would also have to change at least MA Abysia with the same change. It for sure would make them more powerful by a substantial margin, but it also makes them a full-on blood nation.

It would make sense to give Agartha Heat-1 or 2, seeming as everyone takes it anyways, and it would benefit them to have some extra design points.

In general the 'recruit anywhere' suggestions are thematic minefields. Just look at the MA Man warden fallout(I for the record approve of that change, but many others didn't).

[Festin]

And this is exactly why Jomon's Sohei should not be made recruitable anywhere. Oh, please no.

[Alpine Joe]

Well I tried to avoid making any nation's strongest, iconic mage recruitable everywhere, except kailasa, and maybe that was a bad idea. I can't see anything wrong with making warlock apprentices at least recruitable everywhere, and mage engineers almost never get used otherwise. Svartalfs and Dwarven smiths aren't the iconic mage for either of their nations, IMO.

I don't understand the problem with extra magic paths. They make nations more interesting by adding more options. In EA especially, the more human nations are magically equivalent or weaker than their non-human counterparts, who often come with impressive physical stats, immunities, and other powers. Ermor's frail, old elders should be better at magic than Niefelheim's giants.

Caveat: I am not much of a thematic person, preferring balance over staying true to the spirit. I understand QM's reasons for not touching certain things, and perhaps there should be a separate nation balance mod. However since the thread is for "complete balance," I think this is an appropriate place to have the conversation.

[Belac]

One thing EA Agartha could use, for balance, I think, is easier research. Its mages get 4 and 7 RP for 120 and 350GP (sacred), which is pretty lousy overall, especially for early era.

[LDiCesare]

Originally Posted by Alpine Joe

Well I tried to avoid making any nation's strongest, iconic mage recruitable everywhere, except kailasa, and maybe that was a bad idea.

That's not really true for EA T'ien Chi eihter. Sure, they have captial only celestial masters, but these are not the best mages you want to recruit. They fly and are expensive, so being capital only is not much of a drawback. If you allow masters of the elements to be recruited everywhere, there's simply no reason to recruit any mage except masters of the 5 elements and celestial masters in the capital, thereby removing 2 units from the game, which is counter to CBM purpose.
Furthermore, I fail to see how this strengthens T'ien Chi. I'm also not sure they need boosting. The cost reduction on archers would let them mass more archers, but would it really help? To me, EA TC is a bless nation. Warriors of the 5 elements will make mincemeat of most other troops but are capital only, so later on, you switch to TC's sacred national summons. The biggest problems EA TC may face early on is Hinnom (fire resistant giants with good mr) or hyper aggressive Mictlan eagle warriors flying above your archers. Where T'ien Chi is weak is late game: They have weak astral and death mages, so must make up by having a good early/mid-game so they can empower or summon better mages. The boosts you propose don't help early on and don't help late-game. Masters of the 5 elements would make T'ien Chi a nation with awesome battlefield magic without need for communions, but I'm not sure they need an armada of wizards to back them in late game.

[Tollund]

Originally Posted by LDiCesare

If you allow masters of the elements to be recruited everywhere, there's simply no reason to recruit any mage except masters of the 5 elements and celestial masters in the capital, thereby removing 2 units from the game, which is counter to CBM purpose.

There are many, many units that are not recruited and could effectively be removed from the game. Forcing people to use them doesn't exactly make the game better. Unless there's a compelling balance reason to make a unit capital only it should probably be recruitable everywhere. Otherwise you run into the actual thematic problem that no national unit should be recruitable from anywhere that is not the capital (or initial territory) since that's the only place that those troops would be trained.

[Fantomen]

A very minor note: The mounted "soldier of the east" generated by celestial general lacks a hoof attack. It's not a big issue I know, but easy to fix so I think it should be adjusted in the next CBM.

[Alpine Joe]

Originally Posted by LDiCesare

That's not really true for EA T'ien Chi eihter. Sure, they have captial only celestial masters, but these are not the best mages you want to recruit. They fly and are expensive, so being capital only is not much of a drawback. If you allow masters of the elements to be recruited everywhere, there's simply no reason to recruit any mage except masters of the 5 elements and celestial masters in the capital, thereby removing 2 units from the game, which is counter to CBM purpose.
Furthermore, I fail to see how this strengthens T'ien Chi. I'm also not sure they need boosting. The cost reduction on archers would let them mass more archers, but would it really help? To me, EA TC is a bless nation. Warriors of the 5 elements will make mincemeat of most other troops but are capital only, so later on, you switch to TC's sacred national summons. The biggest problems EA TC may face early on is Hinnom (fire resistant giants with good mr) or hyper aggressive Mictlan eagle warriors flying above your archers. Where T'ien Chi is weak is late game: They have weak astral and death mages, so must make up by having a good early/mid-game so they can empower or summon better mages. The boosts you propose don't help early on and don't help late-game. Masters of the 5 elements would make T'ien Chi a nation with awesome battlefield magic without need for communions, but I'm not sure they need an armada of wizards to back them in late game.

I don't really think EA tienchi is a bless nation...... your sacreds are weak against archers and even with F9W9 they lose to most other similarly blessed sacreds (hellheim, mictlan, lanka, Hinnom, Kailasa, ). They have terrible HP in the off-season as well, where they have trouble even with regular infantry.

I also don't really understand your point about masters of the 5 elements...they are too good, but you never use them? They completely eliminate the use of masters of the way? Well, when was the last time you used the F1D1 LA c'tis cap only mage, or the equivalent one for LA agartha? nonmage commanders almost never get recruited as is, losing a lot of thematic commanders simply for not being optimal.

[Squirrelloid]

Originally Posted by Festin

And this is exactly why Jomon's Sohei should not be made recruitable anywhere. Oh, please no.

???

Why should they be cap only? Sohei were warriors attached to *a* temple - something Jomon can build anywhere... There's no thematic problems here.

Further, in line with CBM's attempting to make as many options playable as possible, there is no way to make Sohei worth using that doesn't involve making them recruit everywhere. Its just not possible to justify wasting time on a bless for them when the aka-oni has better base stats and can be hired anywhere.

At least the Yamabushi has a reason to exist.

[Micah]

Warriors of the 5 absolutely destroy W/F jags, contrary to your assertion, although I was using an S bless, not an F.

I haven't tried against other sacreds. Additionally, the S bless makes their weak HP in the off season not nearly so bad, since they'll have some leftover HP that will take a while to bleed off, which combos well with twist fate. Oh, and it's cheaper to get too.

Also, your suggestion that Atlantis get almost nothing and rlyeh gets absolutely nothing while giving kailasa recruit-anywhere top-tier mages kind of makes me doubt your grasp on "balance."