OT: Jibjab, Politics, the Big Bang and more!

[Jack Simth]

Originally posted by Cainehill:
Since you like "At least / only one of these four need be true" games, here's one for you.

#1 : God is a sadist, given the way the world is.
#2 : God isn't a sadist, but isn't omnipotent either, or the world wouldn't be the way it is.
#3 : God isn't a sadist, he is omnipotent, but he forgot about us and thus the world went to ****.
#4 : God isn't a sadist, and he is omnipotent, but he's also incompetent and can't fix the mess he made.

One of the four must be true.

(Which is of course BS, but so are the four possibilities you mentioned.)

I'm sorry; I don't see a proof attached for critique; have you listed it elsewhere and I just missed it?

[Jack Simth]

Originally posted by Zapmeister:

quote:

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Originally posted by Jack Simth:
It is a very extravagant claim to say that the laws of physics do not apply past a certain point. Do you have any proof of this?

When you start talking about proof, you're no longer doing science. The Theory of the Big Bang is just that, a theory. No-one has proof that the Universe started that way, even though it does do a good job of explaining the isotropic background microwave radiation.

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I might point out that the only reason I asked for proof was because the person I had been actively debating at the time had just gone on a bit of a tirade about proof being needed for extravagant claims. I suppose I should have been clearer that I was mostly just pointing out that my opponent was slipping a bit of a double-standard into his arguments. I might also point out that the second question, immediately following the segment you quote, was considerably less strict - asking for an observed instance of a violation of the apparently constant laws his theory of the universe required as variable.

Originally posted by Zapmeister:

I thought we were talking about the state of mainstream contemporary scientific thinking here, which definitely doesn't support your theory.

Of course, having the modern, apparently unbreakable laws of physics not apply past a certain point is a variation on one of the four possibilies of the logical proof I listed, isn't it? After all, if the laws didn't apply once, under one set of conditions, it's almost certainly theoretically possible for a similar state of affairs to be manufactured on some scale, and thus to break them again, and so either conservation or entropy (inclusive use of or) can be broken (and thus one/both of those two laws aren't correct under their current form), no?

I notice nobody seems to be attacking an itermediary step in my proof without suggesting one of the possible outs from the proof-by-contradiction I listed earlier - people seem to just be picking one of the possible four, arbitrarily assigning it to what I mean and attacking it. A "straw man" approach.

I suppose there are other outs from that proof - induction isn't valid, say; it never has been logically proven (it's been off-the-cuff proven in a "how could it not be true" kind of way, and it has never been logically disproven, but to the best of my knoweledge, induction has never been logically, rigorously proven). Or perhaps logic simply isn't valid when discussing ultimate origins. Or perhaps there is an infinite amount of energy; entropy only really applies to closed systems; in an infinite-energy system, you can push some energy to a lower-order state and then throw it away into the distance to maintain a higher-order state on the energy that is important to you (Oh, wait - that would be a variation on entropy doesn't work). Or perhaps there are an infinite number of possible universes - in which case it is reasonable for us to live in one with probability 0 - after all, we only live in 1, and one possability of infinity has probability k*1/infinity = 0 for some defined k, doesn't it (oh, wait - I listed a variation on that one - although specifing time rather than universe - close enough to count as a variation). Or perhaps it's only possible for us to exist on the measureable entropy/some amount of order slice of history's infinitive, and so we on a probability 0 slice of time because that's the only slice of time we can exist on (of course, the slice of time itself still has probability 0...).

Of course, nobody's arguing on any of those bases.

Edit: fixed quote formatting

[ July 30, 2004, 02:22: Message edited by: Jack Simth ]

[Jack Simth]

Originally posted by Cainehill:
If one being can ignore the laws of physics - they aren't laws. If one being can break the laws - other beings, entities, energies, and objects can.

*shrug* there's nothing in my proof that necessarily precludes that option. I could not figure out how to work it in, and so am not currently arguing on that basis.

[Gandalf Parker]

The big bang is no longer the accepted theory. Its now Quantum strings and branes. And since that theory tosses out anything that was previously "proven wrong" by the rule of "energy/matter cannot be created or destroyed" we have a whole new ballpark for discussions of faster-than-light drives, teleportation, anything supernatural, and God.
We will have to wait for them to iron out all the quantum stuff alittle more.

[Zapmeister]

Originally posted by Jack Simth:
Of course, having the modern, apparently unbreakable laws of physics not apply past a certain point is a variation on one of the four possibilies of the logical proof I listed, isn't it?

Is it (original post has scrolled off, and I can't be bothered digging for it)? If that's the case, then what is it, exactly, that you're proving? That contemporary physics plus some other more exotic ideas are all possibilities?

If so, then I guess I'm forced to agree

[Sindai]

Originally posted by Gandalf Parker:
The big bang is no longer the accepted theory. Its now Quantum strings and branes.

Za? I thought those were being incorporated into the Big Bang theory to explain inconsistences between older Versions of it and observations. The BBT itself (which I understand to mean simply that the universe began expanding from a single point) wasn't in question, since it's pretty broad.

And since that theory tosses out anything that was previously "proven wrong" by the rule of "energy/matter cannot be created or destroyed"

Za again? Since when? I didn't think that quantum physics violated those rules yet. An explanatory link would be nice.

[ July 30, 2004, 05:02: Message edited by: Sindai ]

[Arryn]

Sindai,

You're correct in your thoughts.

It seems that Gandalf has misinterpreted the "new physics" that's he's read about in the popular press, and drawn some conclusions that are not justified from the theories. I could Google up a bunch of relevent links to show this, but you or Gandalf should be able to find out the facts just as well. If not, let me know and I'll post them.


-- Arryn

[Gandalf Parker]

True, I was trolling abit. No "rules" have been broken yet. The new Quantum theory concerning big bang gives a crossing of membranes releasing matter/energy into our "brane" (their word, not mine). So there is still a bang but no need for a collapse and re-bang. And the matter/energy cannot be destroyed/created rule isnt void but with Quantum Theory comes 11 dimensions and infinite branes. New measurements and new energys and new sources for matter will mean that recorded phenomena cast aside under the old rules will need re-examined. Most of my reading is from .edu sites and more likely to give headaches than answers. But there are some sudo-scientific publications which strive to explain things at a more human level.

The era of scientific stability which causes theorys to become concrete just by the passage of time was predicted to be running abit long just before Quantum broke in. They hoped Chaos Theory would do it but it didnt shake things up as much as Quantum. Its hitting every area. Even in my area (computers) its hitting cryptography, media storage, cpu speeds and wide-area-networks. So far, all in theory of course.
http://www.theory.caltech.edu/people/preskill/ph229/
http://www.newscientist.com/hottopics/quantum/

-- I knew the future was coming,
but it seems to be picking up speed.

[ July 30, 2004, 14:52: Message edited by: Gandalf Parker ]

[Arryn]

Originally posted by Gandalf Parker:
True, I was trolling abit.

Ah. Okay. But shame on you.

So there is still a bang but no need for a collapse and re-bang.

No need, true, but it's possible. There is a particular "colliding branes" model that is very interesting ...