Jotunheim:Utgard AAR

[condors]

Great writeup!

[Arryn]

Gateway103:

I have noticed inconsistent regeneration by my pretender. Some rounds he'll regen and some he won't. (In his Last battle there was a 2-3 round stretch where there was no regen, with the damage level remaining constant -- very much against the odds as you've observed -- then it suddenly kicked in and from then on kept working as it should.) Does not appear to be any pattern. I have not reported it to IW, but I'm fairly sure there's a subtle bug in their code.

The wyrm uses the metals as "fiber" in his diet to keep "regular".

Norfleet:

Ulm was planning to attack the indies regardless, and we both knew it. What I've actually done is trigger a war with them where I wouldn't have had one otherwise for at least 3-4 more months at worst case. I decided to do what I did not because of your paranoid fears but because my main army was in a convenient place to smack them. Had Ulm not gone after Imictan on the same turn I did, there would have been no war. But, based on my experience with Vanheim at Man, once you contest a province with an AI, even if the AI attacks you and not the other way around, a state of war exists. So I thought it best to be prepared. I had no desire to war with Ulm, but neither do I relish their continuing to gobble up the "loose" provinces near me. So I struck first, and let the chips fall where they may.

Condors:

Thanks!

[ March 14, 2004, 10:19: Message edited by: Arryn ]

[Arryn]

Turn #39, Early Summer of Year 4
Growing pains.

Part 2 of 2

Priests are recruited in Melma, Herghendorf, The Promised Land, and Pythium. I raise the PD of Agenor by 1 (to 10), and of the Well by 3 (to 13). I raise 20 PD in each of the newly-conquered provinces of Gipha, Imictan, and Saeborea. A new temple is to be built in Agenor. These preparations drain the treasury of 1076 coins.

Taxes remain at zero in Agenor to finish quelling unrest there. I reduce the taxes of Man and Gipha to 60%, Imictan to 40%, and Saeborea to zero to quell unrest in these provinces.

The Ivy King Thomm continues a monthly ritual of Awakening Vine Ogres, at a cost of 1 nature gem each month. The Norna Rimdriva alchemizes 4 nature gems into 2 astral pearls, then prepares to invoke the ritual of Acashic Record upon the province of Imictan, for which I allot all 25 of the astral pearls in the treasury. Two Seithkona each forge an Endless Bag of Wine, expending all 10 of my remaining nature gems. The Skratti Tunne forges another Clam of Pearls at a cost of 10 water gems. The Enchantress Ulga forges Winged Boots, for which I allot 5 air gems. The Enchantress Pladina, using a Dwarven Hammer, forges another Dwarven Hammer, at a cost of only 15 earth gems.

Swanuth the Firbolg, in command of 20 Jotun spearmen and 8 vine ogres, moves from Saeborea into the independent plains province of Isurian, ostensibly defended by a score of fanatics and light cavalry.

The priest Gunthamun, with 4 newly-summoned vine ogres, moves from the Black Alps to Saeborea. The commander Theag, in Ancyrna with 5 troglodytes, will rendezvous with Gunthamun in Saeborea.

Tahmar heads from Pythium to the Well, with the intention of picking up the half-dozen longdead giants the seithkona Urd is presently commanding.

My wyrm Jorgun will attack the Ulmish province of Arnbeg, which is reported to have approximately a score of black plate and heavy infantries.

The priest Arnold will move from Hoburgdorf to Imictan so as to be in position to erect a temple next month. The priest Amalarik, with an escort of 3 Jotun spearmen and 1 Jotun huskarl (spear-armed), heads out from Ashikaga to Herghendorf.

The priest Erkeborn moves from Kepess to Gipha, as does the priest Totila from Agenor.

Commander Stark moves from Agenor to take command of the fortress at Man.

Rod the Firbolg, leading a company of 18 Jotun spearmen and a bodyguard of 5 vine ogres, along with the priests Konrad and Donner (carrying Sceptres of Authority and with one vine ogre apiece as bodyguards), move west from Gipha to attack Vanheim's province of Betane. Four more priests from Agenor, and one from Man, will also rendezvous in Betane for the battle. Resistance is expected to amount to no more than a half-score of light infantry.

I split the main army in Ivenmoor into three smaller forces. Commander Ualgo (now carrying a Sceptre of Authority), with 19 Jotuns plus a bodyguard of one vine ogre and one Jotun axeman, is to attack northwest into the plains province of Clon which Vanheim appears to be defending with only 7 light infantry. The priests Albrecht and Geiserek (carrying Sceptres of Authority and with one vine ogre apiece as bodyguards), presently with Rod the Firbolg's army in Gipha, will join Ualgo in the attack upon Clon.

Bove is given the Winged Boots that were forged Last month, and commanding 26 Jotuns, will attack northwards into the Ulmish plains of Wold, along with the priest named Erkeborn (carrying a Sceptre of Authority and with a bodyguard of one vine ogre and one Jotun axeman).

My prophet Grymis takes command of the remaining 25 Jotuns, plus a bodyguard of one Jotun axeman, and moves northeast to attack the Ulmish forest-covered mountains of Kratas, where a score of barbarians and raptors await.

My plan is bold, striking Ulm simultaneously in three locations along my northern border before they can amass forces to threaten me, as well as striking Van at two other weak points along my northwest border, while they are momentarily preoccupied with fending off the Mictlani. And I continue my southward expansion before Arco or Pangaea can take the unclaimed provinces on that border.

Turn #39 plotted movement (1174x1002)

[Norfleet]

Originally posted by Arryn:
The wyrm uses the metals as "fiber" in his diet to keep "regular".

Maybe he hacks them up in big metal chainballs later, like cats hack up hairballs?

Ulm was planning to attack the indies regardless, and we both knew it.

Well, yes, but still. Had you perhaps found a way to act faster, this COULD have been avoided. Or at least postponed.

I decided to do what I did not because of your paranoid fears but because my main army was in a convenient place to smack them.

Hey, don't mock my paranoia!

My paranoia is a GOOD thing that has kept me alive over the years. If I was not as "paranoid" as I am, I would already be dead! Not to mention it serves me excellently in multiplayer, where human behavior is less predictable and safe than AI behavior.

So I struck first, and let the chips fall where they may.

Striking first is always good. Helps one maintain the strategic initiative.

P.S.
Did you get my AAR compilations on the end of the Argitothian Empire?

[Arryn]

Originally posted by Norfleet:
Maybe he hacks them up in big metal chainballs later, like cats hack up hairballs?

That would bring new meaning to the idea of "projectile vomiting" ...

Had you perhaps found a way to act faster, this COULD have been avoided. Or at least postponed.

You've been reading this AAR from the beginning. You know that wasn't really an option, unless I was willing to just let Vanheim have Man, which would have been stupid. Ulm didn't begin its land grab until I was already committed against Van. I redirected my largest army, and my pretender, as fast as I could. Had Ulm waited 1-2 more turns I would have been even more awkwardly positioned than I had been. And I am not in the habit of starting needless wars when I am already involved in other wars.

So, I could have ignored Van, the (now-ex) #1 power in the world and let them take Man, grow even more powerful, and permitted them to come right up against my richest provinces (the ones surrounding Ashikaga), for the sake of grabbing some indies which weren't important -- at that time -- that I was using as a buffer against Ulm. And preemptively starting a war with a third-rate nation like Ulm who had been totally passive until I went after Van. I don't think this was ever a reasonable consideration. Had I done this, you would be harassing me about Van instead of Ulm, and rightfully so in such a case.

Go back through the AAR and be my guest at finding an appropriate, auspicious moment when it would have been good to grab the indies and/or instigated a war with Ulm (while at the same time stopping Van, the by far more dangerous enemy) -- with the caveat of only using the knowledge available to me at the time, and not 20/20 hindsight. If you can do so, which I sincerely doubt, I'll be gracious enough to acknowledge your point. Otherwise, please give it a rest.

You were also harping on Atlantis a while back, and has been amply seen, they have plenty of other ... fish to fry. Had I taken Ministra (as I did Imictan) I would have had yet *another* war I didn't want and been in even worse position to deal with.

So far, *my* timetable and plan has been achieving what I feel are acceptable results, methodical or plodding as it may sometimes be. You may find new amusement in seeing (on turn #40) that I am now a tad overextended. Damned if you do, and damned if you don't, Mr. Devil's Advocate.

Hey, don't mock my paranoia!

Why not? You're also the guy who pumps ridiculous amounts of gems into globals. These techniques of yours that perhaps serve you well in MP are unnecessary in SP. You have to keep the proper perspective about just what sort of game is being played, how good (or not) your opponents are. You and I both know full well just how aggressive (or not) the SP AI is. Just like you get a feel for your MP opponents, so you can react to each according to their weaknesses, so too is it fair to exploit the weakness of the SP AI (as compared to a human). We both know that many of the things I've been doing would be suicidal versus humans. I've always made that abundantly clear in this AAR, or at least I hope I have been, for the sake of the noobies.

P.S.
Did you get my AAR compilations on the end of the Argitothian Empire?

Yes, thanks, and I won't discuss it in this thread.

[Norfleet]

Originally posted by Arryn:
You were also harping on Atlantis a while back, and has been amply seen, they have plenty of other ... fish to fry. Had I taken Ministra (as I did Imictan) I would have had yet *another* war I didn't want and been in even worse position to deal with.

Totally untrue. I did not, in fact, harp about Atlantis. Charon was the one who mentioned Atlantis, briefly, which I would hardly call harping on it. I explicitly stated not to do anything to antagonize them, and that the independent provinces in question should be taken only if an opportunity presented itself, such as if Atlantis shuffled off and left the place open, as their generally large coastal presence already meant they could attack anywhere at any time, and as an aquatic race, you weren't in a position to do anything about it. I believe we were in agreement on the issue at the time.

I still, however, assert that given that I had been harping about the impending Ulmish situation for a goodly 6 turns, you could have done SOMETHING in that time. You did, after all, have your wyrm sit unproductively and unsuccessfully sieging the Fort Man for a goodly 4+ months. Surely that was enough time for a quick stopover.

However, what's done is done. Attacking Arnbeg and closing off that tiresome point of exposure is definitely a sound move.

[Arryn]

Originally posted by Norfleet:
I still, however, assert that given that I had been harping about the impending Ulmish situation for a goodly 6 turns, you could have done SOMETHING in that time. You did, after all, have your wyrm sit unproductively and unsuccessfully sieging the Fort Man for a goodly 4+ months. Surely that was enough time for a quick stopover.

Aha! Thank you. Now we finally get to where your view is coming from, which had me puzzled. This is where I feel you are mistaken. Just because the wyrm was not damaging the fortress walls did not mean that having him there was unproductive. Quite the opposite. I destroyed several armies from Man and Vanheim, and I denied Van the victory over Man, which was the entire point of why I was there. Furthermore, from Man it was (at that time) 5 full turns worth of movement to attack the indies along my border with Ulm. Five turns of wasted time moving versus destroying Man/Van armies. I knew it was faster and more productive to finish the siege and then Teleport, and that is what I did.

I apologize for mixing you and Charon up regarding Atlantis. I wrongly assumed it was you without actually re-reading the Posts. When I went back and reviewed maps, I did so from local JPGs, not by rereading Posts. Also being doped up on antihistamines, decongestants, NSAIDs, and whatnot to keep from drowning in my own juices is not conducive to good memory or good judgment. It's why you haven't seen turn #40 yet. As for Arnbeg, once I'm committed to a war, I can hardly not prosecute it to the fullest of my ability. To do less is to be foolish.

[Norfleet]

Originally posted by Arryn:
Five turns of wasted time moving versus destroying Man/Van armies. I knew it was faster and more productive to finish the siege and then Teleport, and that is what I did.

I figured it would only be 4 turns of wasted movement. 1 to a lab, one to teleport to the target, 1 to build a new lab at the destination, 1 to teleport elsewhere. The same 4 turns you spent unsuccessfully sieging a fort, when you could have just let Vanheim and Man kill each other and cleaned up the mess afterwards.

Originally posted by Arryn:
I apologize for mixing you and Charon up regarding Atlantis. I wrongly assumed it was you without actually re-reading the Posts. When I went back and reviewed maps, I did so from local JPGs, not by rereading Posts. Also being doped up on antihistamines, decongestants, NSAIDs, and whatnot to keep from drowning in my own juices is not conducive to good memory or good judgment.

Don't feel too bad. I had to re-read the Posts to make sure you were definitely not correctly talking about me, too. Senility is not conducive to good memory either.

[ March 15, 2004, 03:18: Message edited by: Norfleet ]

[Arryn]

Originally posted by Norfleet:
I figured it would only be 4 turns of wasted movement. 1 to a lab, one to teleport to the target, 1 to build a new lab at the destination, 1 to teleport elsewhere. The same 4 turns you spent unsuccessfully sieging a fort, when you could have just let Vanheim and Man kill each other and cleaned up the mess afterwards.

3 to the nearest lab, Ashikaga, from Man. Just as easy to not bother with the lab and move straight to whatever target, if that target was 4-5 moves away. I had to waste 3 moves just getting anywhere else from Man. Or one move to get away, and a second move to build a lab. I chose to kill Vans and use the lab cost to build 6 more Jotuns.

Plus, I really really wanted the damn air gems from Man.

[Norfleet]

Originally posted by Arryn:
3 to the nearest lab, Ashikaga, from Man. Just as easy to not bother with the lab and move straight to whatever target, if that target was 4-5 moves away. I had to waste 3 moves just getting anywhere else from Man. Or one move to get away, and a second move to build a lab. I chose to kill Vans and use the lab cost to build 6 more Jotuns.

I can see your lab building habits don't closely resemble mine at all, then.

I like to keep labs within easy reach, because that way, my SC can simultaneously serve as a fast-response force to any such emergencies that crop up. The rest state of my SCs tends to always be at/near a lab, where I'm free to teleport/trapeze into any hotspot that requires attention. You probably view labs as something you build only for research and mage production. I tend to see them more as airbases.