My AI Design Q&A

[Master Belisarius]

Originally posted by cybersol:
More questions:
6) As a human player I can design a ship with a small transport hull that has 5 mine layer components. Since their secondary ability is cargo storage and 150/300 >= 50% then this is a valid design. Is there a way to have the AI design this ship, or is a transport hull forced to have eight cargo storage components for the AI no matter what?

The AI select the hull, in basis of the ship design. For example, you will see that my AIs never use the "Transport" hull.

Originally posted by cybersol:

7) Does anyone know how to fix the fact that the AI retrofits ships and then leaves when they are only half done repairing?

Nope. Think the only way is to include repair ships in the fleets...

[cybersol]

Originally posted by Master Belisarius:
I think the AI always check the 1-11 every turn. My guess is that the AI always start from the number 1 in the queue and check if need to build the item or not. One after other.
For this, if the queue is very large, the AI have problems to reach the Lastest items in the queue... because always is building trying to replace the loses in the first places of the queue.

Well, I finished testing this and you (as usual) are correct. It seems to start at the top of the queue for that ai state every turn looking for something to build. If the requirements are satisfied then it moves down to the next item. So redundant lines really will not help. Now I have to revisit all my queues.

Originally posted by Master Belisarius:
The AI select the hull, in basis of the ship design. For example, you will see that my AIs never use the "Transport" hull.

Yeah, selecting the small transport hull is easy (via majority component). But getting it to use 5 mine layers as the required components instead of 8 cargo storage seems impossible. Bummer.

[cybersol]

Thanks, guys for answering my questions.

Summary of what I have learned from the questions so far:
1) If you use a cloak on ship space yards, don't expect any production. But this might be a good thing.
2,3,4,6,7) These are all slight imperfections in how the AI works, you can't do anything about them except live with them.
5) I was just plain wrong. The construction_vehicles file reads from top to bottom inside the current state everytime it wants to construct something.

New Question:
8) Most ships seems to understand when they are running out of supply EXCEPT colony ships. Those are really important ships not to stop off and resupply before travelling across the entire quadrant. Is there any trick (before solar collectors make it unecessary) to get them to stop and resupply at a forward system and then go off and colonize. (I'll probably have to live with this one too, unfortunately).

[Grand Lord Vito]

imperfections in how the AI works, you can't do anything about them except live with them.

I am a newbie like you but I do not want to play with imperfections

Cybersol, what was actually covered in this thread so far, on 1-5 even 6 and 7 was just berly touched on and I don/t see many se4 AI resolutions in most or the tricks you talked about. How can you say that it is understood, when none of your topics has been really discussed. Accept a few points from Master Belisarius and JLS.
I do not see how you think a SYS can work for the AI or most of 1-7. You seem to always miss quote the participating parties here in your thread. You do not answer some questions to be sure we understand how, why or what to do in any certain topic of 1 thru 7, just say this is not a real bad imperfection or is it actualy really still broken.

EDIT:

"How do you think it works?"

A: Does boarding work for the AI
B: JLS why is Recon Sats for the AI still a concern
C: Should the AI build recyclers
D: I think I understand why mine sweepers don’t work for the AI
E: Should I build Planet Ship and Fleet Facilities. JLS and MB says yes, you say it does not work
1: Space Yard Ships it appears MB does not think overall they are good for the AI
2: If I use the same ship name (and type) but different weapons. Is this a simple design and what you research for the AI, but solution is not clear
3: Is there anyway to stop the AI from trying to retrofit. No one has said what happens to this ship, the way it sounds you would have dozens of over the HW.
4: I don’t suppose anyone knows a trick (without modding). You don’t want to Mod the AI here but it is ok with Minefields. You say but TRUE, JLS just got me confused even more and the experts have not remarked on why it is set to False for the AI in the defaults in se4.
5: ok here, good advise from MB but will the AI use the lines after 11?
6: Why is it that AIC and Proportions the AI have Small Transport Mine and Sat Layers
7: What does the AI do with its damaged ship do in se4
8:

[ June 13, 2003, 20:15: Message edited by: Grand Lord Vito ]

[cybersol]

Originally posted by Grand Lord Vito:
I am a newbie like you but I do not want to play with imperfections.

Well, most will not be apparent from the players point of view. But they can be very frustrating for the aspiring AI modder.

Originally posted by Grand Lord Vito:
Cybersol, what was actually covered in this thread so far, on 1-5 even 6 and 7 was just berly touched on and I don/t see many se4 AI resolutions in most or the tricks you talked about. How can you say that it is understood, when none of your topics has been really discussed. Accept a few points from Master Belisarius and JLS.

I agree 100% that we have not seen many resolutions to 2-4 and 6-7. I was hoping that summarizing might lead someone to correct me if I was wrong about them being imperfections we have to live with. Or they would interject with a novel trick that would solve one of the questions.

[quote]Originally posted by Grand Lord Vito:

I do not see how you think a SYS can work for the AI or most of 1-7.

Well, MB was the one that uses cloaks on his space yard ships. He also said he prefers that they not produce anything because they tend to do wierd things. Together, this clears up why he uses cloaks while others (mephisto for example) do not.

[quote]Originally posted by Grand Lord Vito:

You seem to always miss quote the precipitating parties here in your thread.

All I can say is the quotes were accurate at the time I begin posting my reply. Edits after that sometimes changed the content of the original message. Also, through the detail of always putting the author at the head of each quote, you can tell I take quotation very seriously. All in all, this is a strong comment to make and it seems a little too personal.

EDIT: For example you just removed thing I quouted about teachers and students.

[quote]Originally posted by Grand Lord Vito:

You do not answer some questions to be sure we understand how, why or what to do in any certain objective of 1 thru 7, just say this is not a real bad imperfection or actualy really is still broken in se4.

What do you want to know? Feel free to ask questions, I think I have gained understanding about what to do with 1) and 5) if you want me to explain more of what I learned. As I said before I still waiting and hoping for solutions to the others.

[quote]Originally posted by Grand Lord Vito:

You say you (need help) but it seems you are trying very hard to Treach your views, instead of the student listening to the advise of the experts

First of all, I revere and respect the experts, because only through trying this can I full understand how much effort they put into making this game better for all of us.

Yet JLS asked my opinion on whether minesweeping was feasible by the AI, so I gave it. Was I supposed to just not respond? I did feel I a little knowledge here because I had just spent some time looking into minesweeping. I was focused on this issue because an effective AI must deal with mines if it is to continue to expand or even just attack.

[ June 13, 2003, 19:23: Message edited by: cybersol ]

[Grand Lord Vito]

Cybersol, I realized it sounded personal sorry, I am just frustrated I guess.
But from what I have read no one but MB has come up to the plate.
I added some points below if anyone can still clarify them.
I have made 2 AI design and if they are not right then I will need to change them.

[cybersol]

I'm going quoteless here, but these are all responses to Grand Lord Vito.

First of all, read the entire thread by the TDM modders that I quoted earlier. It is great advice, though some of it is a little outdated. Here is the link again.

A: Does boarding work for the AI

From what I have seen the TDM Vikings (by Rollo) use it extensively. I am still wondering what JLS observed to make it seem ineffective.

B: JLS why is Recon Sats for the AI still a concern

He was basically saying that it is not a good idea to build too many of them in the construction_vehicles file because you will then have 40 recon satellites in a sector which is just a waste.

C: Should the AI build recyclers

It will never move ships there intentionally before it scraps them. It might by chance end up scrapping over a world with a recycler and get the benefit that way. Up to you whether that makes them worth building or not.

D: I think I understand why mine sweepers don't work for the AI

Both MB and I have said they work ok, but not great. Why do you think they don't work?

E: Should I build Planet Ship and Fleet Facilities. JLS and MB says yes, you say it does not work

It works in the same sense as recylcers, the AI doesn't move a ship or a fleet into that sector intentionally to train it. If it happens to be in that sector a couple of turns for other reasons it will receive training. Also, according to mephisto in that thread above, the AI used to break up and reform fleets a lot so fleet training was even less effective. I still have not heard whether this is still true or not. So ship training probably couldn't hurt, especially on planet types where the AI ships tend to hover for a turn or more. Fleet training, need some input from the experts.

1: Space Yard Ships it appears MB does not think overall they are good for the AI

Somewhere in that thread they describe how the AI uses SYS. There are 2 roles they can play, ship rescue and movable construction bases. MB values the ship rescue role (which they can do while cloaked) but not the construction base role (which he can disable by using a cloak).

2: If I use the same ship name (and type) but different weapons. Is this a simple design and what you research for the AI, but solution is not clear

Well, for now I am using a different name but the same design type when the weapons compliment changes. I haven't approached the late game to many times in testing yet, so I don't know if I will need to do additional work like adding a second DN class with a different weapons compliment (see Death Match 2 thread for more info here).

3: Is there anyway to stop the AI from trying to retrofit. No one has said what happens to this ship, the way it sounds you would have dozens of over the HW.

Well, for me it tries to retrofit for 10 or more turns until finally the tech changes so the new design is different and then the ships can retrofit properly. Since posting this problem, I now run into a similar one where ships that hit the 50% retrofit limit just sit there useless trying to retrofit but failing over and over again for a long while.

4: I don't suppose anyone knows a trick (without modding). You don' want to Mod the AI here but it is ok with Minefields. You say but TRUE, JLS just got me confused more and the experts have not remarked on why it is set to False for the AI in the defaults in se4.

I explain both the limits of my modding and the trade-offs of the true versus false settings in previous Posts. Look back for answers. If you still have questions, then ask specifics.

6: Why is it that AIC and Proportions the AI have Small Transport Mine and Sat Layers

Do the AIC and Proportions small transport mine and sat layers have greater than 50% of thier capacity devoted to cargo storage? I am trying to design a small transport ship with 5 mine layers and NO cargo storage. I can acheive this as a player but I cannot get the AI to design the same ship.

7: What does the AI do with its damaged ship

As far as I can tell, the damaged ship after retrofit bug seems to happen because the hardcode does not factor in repair aptitude. But I still need to test a race with 100% apptitude to make sure.

I hopes this helps. I understand your frustrations at trying to program the AI and I hope we can help each other.

[JLS]

Relax GLV; it is only a computer game
--------------------------------------------

Originally posted by Grand Lord Vito:

You seem to always miss quote the precipitating parties here in your thread.

I do not think I was mis-quoted, GLV.

This is not golf, GLV, were it is good etiquette is to let players play thru, and were some may just drive away.

Originally posted by cybersol:
Yet JLS asked my opinion on whether minesweeping was feasible by the AI, so I gave it. Was I supposed to just not respond? I did feel I a little knowledge here because I had just spent some time looking into minesweeping. I was focused on this issue because an effective AI must deal with mines if it is to continue to expand or even just attack.

This was a very interesting exchange I enjoyed it.

Cybersol,
By the way in the Scenarios; will AI Player (1) Mine Sweepers or ships (:=True) move on to Player (3) minefields.

Originally posted by Grand Lord Vito:
B: JLS why is Recon Sats for the AI still a concern

That is all; just keep an eye on the ratio in your Sat Groups.
Your AI look fine, here GLV

Originally posted by Grand Lord Vito:
4: You say but TRUE, JLS just got me confused even more and the experts have not remarked on why it is set to False for the AI in the defaults in se4.

The AI Player (1) Scenarios

This was just a teaser for Cybersol
Sorry if I confused the topic

Originally posted by Grand Lord Vito:
Why is it that AIC and Proportions the AI have Small Transport Mine and Sat Layers

You mention MODs, GLV and Cybersol is looking to create an AI for TDM.

The Small Transport designs, I made for the Abbidon in Proportions may be applicable in base se4 AI.

Cybersol, if you have time can you check.
The engines entry may need to be adjusted but the design should work for your TDM AI.

Name := Mine Layer
Design Type := Mine Layer
Vehicle Type := Ship
Default Strategy := Don't Get Hurt
Size Minimum Tonnage := 290
Size Maximum Tonnage := 310
Num Must Have At Least 1 Ability := 1
Must Have Ability 1 := Lay Mines
Minimum Speed := 3
Desired Speed := 9
Majority Weapon Family Pick 1 := 0
Majority Weapon Family Pick 2 := 0
Majority Weapon Family Pick 3 := 0
Majority Weapon Family Pick 4 := 0
Majority Weapon Family Pick 5 := 0
Secondary Weapon Family Pick 1 := 0
Secondary Weapon Family Pick 2 := 0
Secondary Weapon Family Pick 3 := 0
Secondary Weapon Family Pick 4 := 0
Secondary Weapon Family Pick 5 := 0
Shields Spaces Per One := 0
Armor Spaces Per One := 0
Majority Comp Spaces Per One := 10000
Majority Comp Ability := Cargo Storage
Secondary Comp Spaces Per One := 0
Secondary Comp Ability :=
Num Misc Abilities := 3
Misc Ability 1 Name := Solar Supply Generation
Misc Ability 1 Spaces Per One := 10000
Misc Ability 2 Name := Supply Storage
Misc Ability 2 Spaces Per One := 90
Misc Ability 3 Name := Lay Mines
Misc Ability 3 Spaces Per One := 10

===============================

But from what I have read no one but MB has come up to the plate.

GLV, I was the first one out of the box

[ June 13, 2003, 21:57: Message edited by: JLS ]

[cybersol]

Originally posted by JLS:
Cybersol, if you have time can you check.
The engines entry may need to be adjusted but the design should work for your TDM AI.

Name := Mine Layer
Design Type := Mine Layer
Vehicle Type := Ship
Default Strategy := Don't Get Hurt
Size Minimum Tonnage := 290
Size Maximum Tonnage := 310
Num Must Have At Least 1 Ability := 1
Must Have Ability 1 := Lay Mines
Minimum Speed := 3
Desired Speed := 9
Majority Weapon Family Pick 1 := 0
Majority Weapon Family Pick 2 := 0
Majority Weapon Family Pick 3 := 0
Majority Weapon Family Pick 4 := 0
Majority Weapon Family Pick 5 := 0
Secondary Weapon Family Pick 1 := 0
Secondary Weapon Family Pick 2 := 0
Secondary Weapon Family Pick 3 := 0
Secondary Weapon Family Pick 4 := 0
Secondary Weapon Family Pick 5 := 0
Shields Spaces Per One := 0
Armor Spaces Per One := 0
Majority Comp Spaces Per One := 10000
Majority Comp Ability := Cargo Storage
Secondary Comp Spaces Per One := 0
Secondary Comp Ability :=
Num Misc Abilities := 3
Misc Ability 1 Name := Solar Supply Generation
Misc Ability 1 Spaces Per One := 10000
Misc Ability 2 Name := Supply Storage
Misc Ability 2 Spaces Per One := 90
Misc Ability 3 Name := Lay Mines
Misc Ability 3 Spaces Per One := 10

I tried it, and as expected this results in a ship with 9 cargo storage and 1 mine layer components. I recommonend at least changing the "Majority Comp Spaces Per One := 10000" to "Majority Comp Spaces Per One := 0", since this will at least give you only 8 cargo storage. Then you can fit one of those supply storage components.

Now start up a game with yourself in command, create a ship design with a small transport hull. Fill with command and control and engines. The "50% of spaces must be used for cargo containers" warning won't let you create the design yet. No add only five mine layer components. The warning disappears, you can create the design now.

Now try to get your AI to build that same ship. As far as I can tell it is impossible.

Originally posted by JLS:
Cybersol, By the way in the Scenarios; will AI Player (1) Mine Sweepers or ships (:=True) move on to Player (3) minefields.

Well, you certainly are persistent. I still don't know because I don't have the time to set up this particular test. I am currently testing all the other stuff that needs testing to get a new AI working well. If you are really interested in the best possible answer, set up the test (should take less than an hour).

But if I had to hazard a guess based on what I know now. The AI would sign a treaty with player 2, but since the minefield was already marked I doubt the hardcode is able to figure out that the minefield belongs to player 2, and I just signed a treaty with player 2, so the minefield is no longer a threat (If the hardcode does recognize this then that is awesome). Let us assume it does not recognize it and ships don't move through minefields = true. All ships will avoid the marked minefield except the "mine sweeper" design type ships. These will actively seek out the marked minefield. After entering the square with the marked minefield, the first "mine sweeper" type ship will not die because the treaty is in effect and thus the minefield is not actually harmful. The fact that the ship lived must mean there is not minefield here, so the AI will clear the marked minefield. The minesweepers will start seeking out the next marked minefield, which in this case belongs to player 3.

Now if ships don't move through minefields = false, then the minesweepers behave the same, but all the other ships ignore marked minefields. For the player 2 minefield this means a scout ship or attack fleet could move through the marked minefield and survive, causing it to become unmarked. Potentialy wwitching the minesweepers to focus on the player 3 marked minefield faster. But, for the player 3 minefield, your scouts and attack fleets will move through it like it is not there, but they will die a horrible death.

[ June 13, 2003, 22:21: Message edited by: cybersol ]

[JLS]

If I can make it work in Proportions, it may work in se4. The Component database is similar but the Greater Cargo Capacity for the Cargo Bay in se4 is probably the problem

[ June 13, 2003, 22:29: Message edited by: JLS ]