Best 4 X Game To Date

[Baron Munchausen]

Originally posted by The Beastmaster:
You are right, I have not spent much time reading on this board... I have visted it from time to time, but never looked too closely at it. My mistake obviously. I still have hopes that it is a good game, but I really thought the A.I. would have surpassed that of Deadlock 2. From what I'm reading now, it appears that the A.I. may be able to put up a better fight, but man, why not just remove the non-functioning diplomacy options from vs. AI games? Or is that not possible?

The AI is not good at diplomacy, but if you play in a medium or small map with lots of enemies you'll get into conflict quickly and get a hell of a fight. In large-scale games the AI seems to get confused and becomes really lame. Ah, well. There's always PBW...

[The Beastmaster]

Cool Baron, thanks for the tip.
I will have to try my first games on a small map... probably for the best any ways due to the learning curve that I am anticipating for this game.

[Barnacle Bill]

I don't have the time for playing against humans. I have two kids & a wife who is NOT supportive of this hobby, so I get in a turn or two whenever the coast is clear. For me, AI opponents are the only kind there are.

It is not necessarily that "the AI is bad at diplomacy". It is that the AI does not respect agreements and the rules of the game do not enforce it. What I mean by the later is, remember in Civ2 if you tried to move a combat unit into the city radius of another civ with which you were at peace and it would prompt you that doing so would break the treaty & start a war? That right there would solve the problem.

A more detailed resolution would look like:

1) If you are at war or in that first contact "no treaty" status with another race, any proposed deal that includes a treaty must address any conflicting system claims. The possibilities for that would be: (a) mine, (b) yours, (c) share [colonization/remote mining of any remaining unused body being "first come, first served"], (d) mine but you can pass through, (e) yours but I can pass through. Under Non-Intercourse, only (a) & (b) would be allowed. AI should never agree to a deal that leaves one or more of its systems cut off from the rest (i.e. with no path through systems it is allowed to enter).

2) "Giving" a system automatically transfers ownership of all colonies and anything else in the system except ships with at least one functional engine. Ships in a system which is "given" do not change ownership but automatically set movement orders to the nearest system retained (or shared) by their owner. Such orders cannot be changed until complete.

3) Once a treaty is in place between two races, if either attempts to claim a system already claimed by the other, it gets prompted with a message "Are you sure? This will break the treaty and declare war!". The AI would do this only if it really wanted to attack the other side.

4) Once the treaty is in place, if one party even enters a system belonging totally to the other, or attempts to colonize/remote mine in a system belonging to the other but through which it has right of passage, it gets prompted with a message "Are you sure? This will break the treaty and declare war!". The AI would do this only if it really wanted to attack the other side.

5) Individual deals to alter the status of a particular system would be allowed later.

6) Two levels of military alliance. "Mutual Defense Pact" (the lower level) obligates the two parties to go to war against any third party which attacks the other (if your ally is the aggressor, there is no obligation). "Military Alliance" (the higher level) grants each party right of passage and refueling rights in all the systems of the other, even while at peace.

7) Under Protectorate or Subjugation, the dominant partner automatically has right of passage in all of the weaker race's systems. Under Subjugation, the stonger additionally automatically gets refueling rights at the refueling depots of the weaker. Under both, the weaker is automatically at war with any third party that the stronger is at war with (no matter who is the aggressor), and any declaration of war against the weaker by a third party is automatically a declaration of war against the stronger (AI third parties should take this into account).

[geoschmo]

Barnacle, I totally agree with your ideas for AI diplomacy. They would be great if they could be implemented.

However I am curious sbout your assertion that single player is your only option since you are limited to only a turn now and then. It seems to me that would make you more likely to play against humans, not less likely.

The vast majority of PBEM and PBW games are exactly that, a turn now and then. Very few even attempt to play more than one turn a day, and 48 hour games are almost as common as 24 hour ones.

I am in the same siutaion as you in that I cannot sit for hours on end playing SEIV because of work and familiy responsibilities. But for me this limitation results in an inabilty to play long single player games against the AI. It doesn't typically interfere with the sporadic once a day or less nature of the average mulitplayer game.

Geoschmo

[mac5732]

In regards to AI Diplomacy, is it possible thru modding (as everyone knows I'm not one ) could you mod the AI races that if you have a treaty with them and either break or bend it or colonize a planet in one of their systems or one which they are currently starting to colonize, that not only their attitude toward you takes a very negative hit towards you but that it increases the anger towards you which increases the % or whatever it is that triggers war with you? Maybe something similiar in affect as Mega Evil, but instead of basing it on the number of planets, colonies, shps, pop, etc its based on a negative point/percentage that comes into play by a human player such as stated above, that war would break out until such actions are eliminated or a peace treaty is made with the AI making demands, such as, you evacuating the system/planet in question, giving them the planets you own in that system, new treaties, etc, could be Called Diplmatic Mega Evil or something on that order??? this way you would have 2 Mega Evil triggers instead of one, One in the Diplomatic area and the other like it currently is, reaching either one would trigger war...

I hope I explained it right the way I meant

PS. Geo, If you live close to me, your more then welcome to play hotseat with us. We play every Sunday (except for mitigating circumstances) from around 7p - 10;30 or 11p.
your more then welcome or anyone else who would like to play hotseat....

just some ideas mac

[ July 12, 2002, 17:15: Message edited by: mac5732 ]

[Barnacle Bill]

Originally posted by geoschmo:
The vast majority of PBEM and PBW games are exactly that, a turn now and then. Very few even attempt to play more than one turn a day, and 48 hour games are almost as common as 24 hour ones.
Geoschmo

I can't guarantee I could get to it every 48 hours. It is more more like time randomly available to play several turns in a row then no time to look at it again for days, sometimes a week or more.

[Barnacle Bill]

Originally posted by mac5732:
In regards to AI Diplomacy, is it possible thru modding (as everyone knows I'm not one ) could you mod the AI races that if you have a treaty with them and either break or bend it or colonize a planet in one of their systems or one which they are currently starting to colonize, that not only their attitude toward you takes a very negative hit towards you but that it increases the anger towards you which increases the % or whatever it is that triggers war with you? mac

Oh, they get mad if you colonize in a system they claim just fine. The problem is that they will colonize in a system that you claim, and if you make a deal resolving a conflict in claims by getting the to agree to "give" you a system, two turns or so later they will claim it again. The only way to prevent them from colonizing in your systems is by force, which you can't use if you have a treaty higher than Non-Intercourse (you can't shoot them, your mines don't trigger on them). So, if you make any treaty higher than Non-Intercourse, in a just few turns you will find in necessary to break that treaty yourself in order to shoot trespassers. So, I just never agree to such treaties.

The short of it is that I want THEM to have to break the treaty BEFORE they trespass, and to weigh the consequences of that appropriately. If you are week or they are hemmed in with noplace else to expland, they should go for it. If neither of those conditions apply, they should not trespass.

A simple alternative that might be OK is if I could shoot trespassers despite having a treaty with them, and set my minefields individually to trigger on allies. Then maybe if they trespass and I shoot they would get mad and cancel the treaty, but it would be their choice (and they should not get as made if you shoot them inside a system you claim).

[mac5732]

B Bill, this also should include, even if you don't have a treaty, one/more ships come into your system, you attack and destroy their shp, they don't immediatley/shortly declare war on you, I've had games where I kept destroying their ships but it took forever to get them to declare war. I would think if you attack and destroy their ships, this should trigger something other then eventual change in their attitude....

What about the Diplomatic Mega Evil Trigger??

just some ideas mac

[Barnacle Bill]

Originally posted by mac5732:
I would think if you attack and destroy their ships, this should trigger something other then eventual change in their attitude....

The problem for me is not how they react to getting their ships shot, but the fact that if I ally with them they will colonize in my systems, forcing me to cancel the treaty so as to be allowed to shoot them, so that all treaties above Non-Intercourse are worthless because I can't use them.

[Taz-in-Space]

The problem of an AI you have a treaty with colonizing your planets caused me to use this trick to prevent colonization: I use samll satellites to reserve a planet. Just load a few on a scout and when you see a really good planet then lay a sat on it. This seems to keep the computer AI from choosing it to settle. Ally or enemy.