SE4 Strategy - An Art or a Science? - Page 3

oleg · #21 April 25th, 2002, 02:46 AM

quote:
Originally posted by Gryphin:
The name of the book I mentioned was:
"Numbers, Predictions and War"
It gets a lot of hits at Google.com

rdouglass,
"In SE or in real life, technolgy almost always wins. Period."
Your key word is, "Almost". For Example the highly trained and technology superior German Army of WWII vs the untrained masses of equipment of the Russian army. It was however a Phyric Vitory if you look at the kill ratio.

In the case of the Germans, I believe, they failed in the "Art of War".

"There is an exception to every rule. Including that one"

This is enough. I know first-handly how arrogant is western public (consequence of Cold war propaganda) about WWII. But for God sake, how can anyone talk about WWII without any knowledge of T-34, IL-2, KV-1, Katusha, Yak-1/3/7/9, etc. ?

PS. Well, I should concur about "highly trained" note. The 37-38 purge deprived Red Army of 2/3 of command personnel. Nobody knows fo sure, but it is highly likely that was the major reason for disastrous 41 compain. Whatever the modern historians say, Hitler was far from being stupid when he planned 41 invasion of Soviet Union. Barbarossa was a very clever plan, it just did nor work. 40-41 were the lowest point of Red Army readiness. The mass production of T-34 started in January of 41. One year delay and Wermacht (spl, sorry) would not advance farther then Brest.

[ 25 April 2002: Message edited by: oleg ]

[ 25 April 2002: Message edited by: oleg ]

[ 25 April 2002: Message edited by: oleg ]

Taz-in-Space · #22 April 25th, 2002, 03:03 AM

oleg, I know that T34 & KV1 were tanks
and believe IL-2 and Yak 1-9 were planes.
but you have me on Katusha!

oleg · #23 April 25th, 2002, 03:49 AM

quote:
Originally posted by Taz-in-Space:
oleg, I know that T34 & KV1 were tanks
and believe IL-2 and Yak 1-9 were planes.
but you have me on Katusha!

For IL-2 check out these links (I'm not Oleg who programed the game, good luck to him )
http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/ent...00/1698123.stm
http://www.il2sturmovik.com/

"Katusha" is a mobile short-range rocket launcher. Even though designed in WWII, it has a relevance to modern times:
http://www.iris.org.il/katyusha.htm

Mudshark · #24 April 25th, 2002, 04:08 AM

some very good Posts to this forum, if no one minds, I will add to the Stratagy&tactic website, it would be a shame for this forum to be lost.

Mudshark · #25 April 25th, 2002, 04:26 AM

Ther is a very good article about why Nazi Germany lost the war in www.wargamer.com . It had more to do with logistics than anything else. Very good read. And some of it could be used in SEIV.

Lupusman · #26 April 25th, 2002, 04:34 AM

Having a ally that can't fight worth crap is also a downer. One has to choose friends wisely.

(cough, cough, Italians)

Mudshark · #27 April 25th, 2002, 04:52 AM

Good point. consider the French in WWII, of for that matter Italy during this time frame. In terms of SEIV they would have been lost except for a huge economic base, that was at least a year in gearing up, i would love for a WWII bases scenerio, perhaps in SEV.

oleg · #28 April 25th, 2002, 05:07 AM

quote:
Originally posted by Mudshark:
Ther is a very good article about why Nazi Germany lost the war in www.wargamer.com . It had more to do with logistics than anything else. Very good read. And some of it could be used in SEIV.

Can you please give a direct link ? wargamer.com is a vast site, I got lost

Gryphin · #29 April 25th, 2002, 05:33 AM

Oleg, you are correct. None the less, it points to a failure in "Art" not "Science".
I did not question the intellect of anyone. I pointed out the failed execution of the science.

I know quite a bit about T34-76's, T34-85's, KV-I and II's. etc. A lot of surplus WWII equipment was used in the 50's in Korea and the Mid East. Stalin's Organs were used within the Last decade in the Mid East.

I may have a slanted view of world history, but not of the equipment, strategy, and tactics that were used.

Different example: The French had superior technology than the Germans. Gun for Gun, Tank for Tank, the equipment was 10 to 15 percent better than the German equipment. They lost when the used it as infantry support. To me that is "Art". They used it wrong. The rest is History.
Yes, I have over simplyfied and nor to I pretend to be an expert. These are just observations I have made and conclusions I have drawn.

oleg · #30 April 25th, 2002, 05:53 AM

quote:
Originally posted by Gryphin:

Different example: The French had superior technology than the Germans. Gun for Gun, Tank for Tank, the equipment was 10 to 15 percent better than the German equipment. They lost when the used it as infantry support. To me that is "Art". They used it wrong. The rest is History.
Yes, I have over simplyfied and nor to I pretend to be an expert. These are just observations I have made and conclusions I have drawn.

Yes, S-35 and and S-36 were quite formidable tankc, in par or even bettrer then T-III. However, I am not aware of mass-produced French aircraft close to Me-109. And even if they are, the result wold be like this :

Pierre, a brave French fighter pilot, takes his girlfriend, Marie, out
for a pleasant little picnic by the River Seine.
It's a beautiful day and love is in the air.

Marie leans over to Pierre and says, "Pierre, kiss me!"

Pierre grabs a bottle of Merlot and splashes it on Marie's lips.
"What are you doing, Pierre?" says the startled Marie.
"I am Pierre, the fighter pilot! When I have red meat, I have red wine!"
She smiles and they start kissing.

Things began to heat up a little and Marie says, "Pierre, kiss me lower."

Our hero tears her blouse open, grabs a bottle of Chardonnay and pours it on her breasts.

"Pierre! What are you doing now?" asks the bewildered Marie.
"I am Pierre, the fighter pilot! When I have white meat, I have white wine!"

She giggles and they resume their passionate interlude,
and things really steam up.

Marie leans close to his ear and whispers, "Pierre, kiss me much lower!"

Pierre rips off her underwear, grabs a bottle of Cognac and pours it in her lap.

He then strikes a match and lights the cognac on fire.
Marie shrieks and dives into the River Seine. Standing waist deep,
Marie throws her arms into the air and screams furiously,
"PIERRE, WHAT IN THE HELL DO YOU THINK YOU ARE DOING?"

Our 'hero' stands and says defiantly, "I am Pierre, the fighter pilot!
If I go down, I go down in flames!"