OT: Bug versus Feature

[geoschmo]

True. And I haven't double checked the files, they may not be allowed now, but it would be a simple matter to mod them in to be able to if they can't now. And I suppose that would be the responsibilty of the modder for making them a possibly destabalising element.

I was simply explaining what I believed to be some peoples reason for not wanting the ability, since it was mentioned by a couple that they couldn't understand why everyone wouldn't want it.

Geo

[dmm]

You know, a "Probe" class would be awesome, especially if higher-level Versions were long-range, fast, and maybe long-Lasting.

And what would be REALLY great, would be if these were fitted into a proper diplomacy system. So, probes could pass through fleets, minefields, and systems of non-enemies without requiring permission or generating ill feeling. But warships could NOT do that. They would either need special permission or would need a higher level of treaty (e.g., partner). Also, maybe you should need to be in actual contact with another race to send Messages. ("Actual contact" here means you have a ship, planet, or probe in the same system as a ship, planet, or probe of the other race. One problem would be the "loss-of-contact amnesia" that the AI suffers from. But that bug ought to be squashed anyway.)

[PvK]

Nice probe idea. I wonder if the AI gets mad about drones in its space, currently. If drones had movement controls, you could include probes by making them small drones with certain settings.


I understand the concept of not wanting drones to be too much like ships, but I don't think giving them move orders would really do that.

Quantum reactors are not allowed on drones in Gold. Solar collectors are, but Sol Col III gives 150 supplies/turn, while a drone burns 200/turn even if it does nothing, and takes 20 kT of space.

Even if Q reactors were allowed, or a player uses 40 kT of drone space on two solar collector III's and/or keeps them in binary/trinary systems, I don't see these being confused with ships, or it being a balance issue. Quantum reactors are kind of expensive for a dinky drone (1000 mins) and take space (20 kT), and drones are small things - it'd be a big investement in a weak escort-sized vessel. There would be advantages over building actual escorts with Q reactors in the peculiar drone speed bonus, and the weird effect that drones are units and so don't suffer partial damage effects and are not targettable by missiles or torpedoes . However, in addition to being expensive, these drones are vulnerable to point defense, could not be retrofit, would not gain experience, would not be usable in fleets (hence no fleet experience), and couldn't carry cargo or the many other components not allowed on drones.

Personally, I'd think with a moveto order, that I might like to allow Q reactors on drones, just because it could be an interesting system to try to use. Of course, it's only about a four-keystroke mod.

PvK

[geoschmo]

Pvk,

These are all good points. The one thiing you are not mentioning though that drones have over ships is no maintenance. While you are correct that drones would not be a lot better than escorts, but considering you could have thousands of them, and pay no maintenance on them, they would be very econimical in the long run, if given enough solar panels to stay supplied indefinetly, or if they were modded to allow QR's.

Geoschmo

[PvK]

I'm keeping that in mind. However, even if you put two solar collectors on a drone, using 40 kT, that only covers the supply use from the per-turn expense - they'll still tend to burn their supplies up when they move or, if they have weapons, fight, or if they have to go in a system without a star. Even if this seems like a problem to some players, I don't think the answer would be to remove the move-to order option. I mean, as they are, drones can still be accumulated in thousands and given solar collectors. The lack of a move-to seems mostly like a separate issue, to me anyway. It seems like if you don't want to have long-lived solar collector drones, then mod a drone Version of solar collectors or something, or ask that to be changed in the standard set.

PvK

P.S.
Furthermore, no other units die when they run out of supplies, and only fighters even track supplies, and they can refuel at depots, while drones can't (I assume). Having a thousand move-to solar collector drones may be a nice no-maintenance asset and an interesting alternative to thousand escorts (which I can hardly imagine anyone building in the unmodded game set, anyway). However, the resource cost to build them doesn't seem like it would necessarily be better spent than on ships, or weapon platforms, or whatever. In fact, I'd be really surprised if it were not quite inefficient by comparison, except for its particular strengths. Most of the expense would be going into engines and other no-real-gain components, compared to a butch Gold-mount weapon platform, warship, etc.

PvK

[ 13 February 2002: Message edited by: PvK ]

[Gryphin]

While I keep in mind that this is Sci Fi and does not represent todays world.
There are "drones" used today that are so small and built like powered gliders that most lower tech "sensors" can not pick them up. These drones can be programed to:
Move To XY
Use Pasive "Sensors"
Record the data internaly
Return to Base
Where the data is extracted
The observed parties never know it was there.

In referance to the AI minding the presence of drones in its system:
I would love to have short range hard to detect "reon drones" that could be reused X number of times.
I could see these drones being so small thay could move through mine fields and past satelites with out being detected.
The one limit would be:
You can't get the data till they return to your system or a "Mother Ship"
Again, this is based on drones being given a "Move To" about which I feel indifferent.

[PvK]

Nice idea and with Move-To, quite moddable (including bypassing mines). The idea of giving delayed-information reports saying what was there when they were is cool, but probably way too much work for MM to patch in just for this. Maybe if we get dated system information at some point.

Another major point is that no one suggesting move-to has suggested Clear Orders - units whose orders can't be cleared are certainly a lot less flexible than ships.

An additional restriction might be that the only way to give a drone an (non-attack? or all?) order would be if in the same sector as a friendly ship/base/colony - this would mean you could use move-to for exploration (especially if you could use the Explore order and stack it or set it to repeat), but drones would have to return to a friendly location to get new move orders.

PvK

[dmm]

FWIW, the CIA has been using remote-control drones in Afghanistan for both recon and attack. (They have 2 Hellfire missiles.) Granted, this is remote-control, but we're not yet ready for interstellar colonization either, so I think drone manufacturers have some time to develop more independent operation.

Slightly off-topic: One drone killed a group of Afghans that included a tall guy with bodyguards. They are now comparing the tall corpse's DNA against the DNA of bin Laden's relatives. I kid you not.