Finnish OOB35 Corrections and Suggestions PART 2 -- Units

[DRG]

Originally Posted by PvtJoker

Unit 024 BA-10: replace with BA-6 (currently missing) from Soviet OOB unit 311. Keep the current availability start (Feb 1940), extend end to Dec 1946.

Unit 025 BA-10+: rename to plain BA-10, available since Apr 1940 until Dec 1946. Harmonize other data with Soviet Unit 041 BA-10, except ammo total 43 rounds (should probably be corrected to the Soviet unit as well). As recon vehicles the BA-10 usually had radios, so radio chance should be much higher than 20. (The radio chance of 10 is quite low for the Soviet unit as well, although late production examples after the German invasion often did not have a radio).

incorrect UNIT numbers aside. Where did you get 43 rounds for main gun ammo ?

http://www.militaryfactory.com/armor...p?armor_id=340 says 49 which is what the Finn version carries ( as the Russian version now does as well ) as does http://ww2db.com/vehicle_spec.php?q=156

Don

[Pibwl]

According to a quoted Russian book, BA-10 carried 49 rounds.

I've found a proper green icon 50 for unit 110 Landsverk 182 (I don't know if there is winter version)

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Artillery:

42 50mm M38 AT-Gun - better icon is bigger 56

48 40mm AA-Gun - picture is generic SP-1 gun - may be 6080 instead.
Nice icon, probably conceived for Bofors 40 mm, is 2801/2803

78 76mm K 02 FG - better icon, and different from unit 77, is 2111 (used for its Polish equivalent)

80, 81 122mm H 09 FH - better icon is 2115 (it had much shorter barrel)

82 122mm H 38 FH - icon should be twin-tail, eg. 2105
The majority captured as early, as summer 41, so probably their use should start earlier, than 6/42 (http://www.jaegerplatoon.net/ARTILLERY5.htm )

83 114mm H/18 Bty,
87 122mm H 09 Bty,
134 122mm H 09 Bty- as indicated in Finnish Weapons thread, they should not be Off-Map Arty.

It seems from Jaeger Platoon, that the only Off-Map Arty (heavy) available for Finland before 1940, should be French 152mm H/17 (same specs, as 155mm mle17, with range 11km).
It should be added as new weapon, and replace eg. unit 87, available from 1/30 (http://www.jaegerplatoon.net/ARTILLERY6.htm)

88 122mm H 09 Bty - name should be H 38, photo: 23180
The majority captured as early, as summer 41, so probably their use should start earlier, than 6/42

90 152mm H 09 Bty
144 152mm H 09 Bty- their weapon had range 9.5km, so it should be 200 to retain these units as off-map arty

[PvtJoker]

Originally Posted by DRG

incorrect UNIT numbers aside. Where did you get 43 rounds for main gun ammo ?

http://www.militaryfactory.com/armor...p?armor_id=340 says 49 which is what the Finn version carries ( as the Russian version now does as well ) as does http://ww2db.com/vehicle_spec.php?q=156

Don

Sorry about the -1 error in Unit numbers.

I got the info about rounds from Jaeger Platoon:

http://www.jaegerplatoon.net/ARMOURED_CARS4.htm

In any case, 49 is probably correct, although I wonder if radio-equipped vehicles carried less rounds and that's the reason for varying numbers.

[Pibwl]

Originally Posted by PvtJoker

In any case, 49 is probably correct, although I wonder if radio-equipped vehicles carried less rounds and that's the reason for varying numbers.

Rather not - there's no mention in Russian sources, and BA-10 carried ammunition at the rear, while radio in front.

Continuing artillery:
- all names should be in fact in "H/37" format rather, than H 37.

- 91 152mm H 37 Bty - captured during a Continuation War, so 6/41 would be probably to early to start - maybe a month or two later.
In fact, they were used by heavy artillery battalions, so they might be classified as heavy arty

- 130 114mm H/1 FH - name should be H/18. Better icon is 2122 (short barrel)

- 131 76mm K 02 FG - better icon is 2111, proposed before for the same unit 78 (it has true narrow trail)

- 132 122mm H 09 FH -better icon is 2115, proposed before for units 80,81 (it had much shorter barrel)

- 149 76mm M27 FG - better icon is short-barrel 2109. It wasn't FG, but IG.

- 152, 158 76mm K36 FG - it should have icon with longer barrel and split trail, eg 57. I'm not sure, if class Infantry Howitzer is proper.

- 153 105mm H33 FG (leFH.18) - better icon is eg. 2105, with split trail (btw. German unit 132 should have the same icon - now it has way too long barrel). I'm not sure, if class Infantry Howitzer for this field howitzer is proper.
It might be available also as Light Off-map Bty, though we have more popular 105 H/37 with yet better performance. Date 5/44 seems OK.

- Unit 154 105mm K29 FG obviously wasn't Class 154 infantry howitzer, but a long-range canon, used from 10/40 (http://www.jaegerplatoon.net/ARTILLERY4.htm). A single gun should be replaced with a battery, presumably of class 10? (in fact it was used in heavy arty units)

- Unit 155 155mm How Bty - it seems, that it should be class 10 Off-map arty, not Off-map Heavy arty - it's ordinary H/17 (mle 17) Schneider howitzer (its name should be changed to H/17 in a pattern of other units). According to Jaeger Platoon, it was most numerous heavy howitzer in Finland. Correct picture should be 23075 or 30290.

Heavy arty unit, with this picture, might be in fact 155mm K/17 Schneider gun (http://www.jaegerplatoon.net/ARTILLERY4.htm), with range 17 km - but only 12 guns were used in 1942 - 6/44, so it is IMO redundant, since there were more popular Soviet 152mm ML-20 with the same performance.


- very welcome addition to off-map arty would be 120mm K/78 or K/78-31, mentioned in Finnish Weapons thread. Similar picture to K/78 is 23230. In fact, used in heavy artillery units.

- there might be added Heavy artillery 21cm H/17 - German Lange Morser unit 328. With a range 10 km, a handful of these guns were used from 4/41 http://www.jaegerplatoon.net/ARTILLERY7.htm

Michal

[PvtJoker]

Originally Posted by Pibwl

Continuing artillery:
- all names should be in fact in "H/37" format rather, than H 37.

- 91 152mm H 37 Bty - captured during a Continuation War, so 6/41 would be probably to early to start - maybe a month or two later.
In fact, they were used by heavy artillery battalions, so they might be classified as heavy arty

- 152, 158 76mm K36 FG - it should have icon with longer barrel and split trail, eg 57. I'm not sure, if class Infantry Howitzer is proper.

- 153 105mm H33 FG (leFH.18) - better icon is eg. 2105, with split trail (btw. German unit 132 should have the same icon - now it has way too long barrel). I'm not sure, if class Infantry Howitzer for this field howitzer is proper.
It might be available also as Light Off-map Bty, though we have more popular 105 H/37 with yet better performance. Date 5/44 seems OK.

- Unit 154 105mm K29 FG obviously wasn't Class 154 infantry howitzer, but a long-range canon, used from 10/40 (http://www.jaegerplatoon.net/ARTILLERY4.htm). A single gun should be replaced with a battery, presumably of class 10? (in fact it was used in heavy arty units)

- Unit 155 155mm How Bty - it seems, that it should be class 10 Off-map arty, not Off-map Heavy arty - it's ordinary H/17 (mle 17) Schneider howitzer (its name should be changed to H/17 in a pattern of other units). According to Jaeger Platoon, it was most numerous heavy howitzer in Finland. Correct picture should be 23075 or 30290.
Michal

It is true that by WW2 naming conventions type designator (H or K) should be followed by / (slash) and the year. However, towards modern times that was changed so that the slash was dropped and replaced by a space:

http://www.puolustusvoimat.fi/portal...8fce00c6621582

I am not sure when this change was officially implemented, but the core of the matter is that it's a very minor point of nomenclature.

As for the "heavy/light" artillery question: By Finnish standards light guns (< 100mm) and light howitzers (< 130mm) were divisional artillery and considered "light". Heavy guns (100-155mm) and heavy howitzers (130-155) mm were typically part of independent artillery units (Finnish army did not have organic artillery at corps or army level) and considered "heavy". Anything bigger than 155mm was super-heavy (järeä in Finnish) artillery regardless of type (gun, howitzer or siege mortar).

So, 155mm howitzers should definitely be in the heavy class, but in any case the different unit classes are there just to enable making reasonable formations for the players -- like Andy said earlier, they do not have to follow historical TO&E slavishly. This also applies to the Infantry Howitzer question, although I agree that anything with a significantly more the 10 km range probably should not be in that unit class (this applies to other OOBs as well).

[Pibwl]

28 Medium Truck - picture is inadequate GMC CCKW. Better is eg. 20512, 22160,

33 Light Truck AOP - picture is inadequate 6x6 Dodge. Better is eg. 22161

44 75mm M40 AT-Gun - they were delivered on 23.5.43 (http://www.jaegerplatoon.net/AT_GUNS2.htm), so they probably should start since 6/43 only (now 5/43)

109, 159 T-38 - picture is T-37 (I'll attach a proposal)
I don't know what is the second entry - differing in front armour 2 and FC=1, available from the same date. I don't know about screened T-38.

138 150mm H 40 Bty- - they arrived only in 10/40 (now 1/40), so this unit, ending in 12/40, can be deleted (there is next unit 89)

By the way: what is a difference between guns and guns with "-"?... I'd understand if they differed in radio, or had additional AP ammo.
131 76mm K 02 FG- is identical as 78, only available earlier - and there is a gap between 9/40-12/40, in which K/02 sure was available as well.
The same situation is with 85 and 133: 76mm K 02 Bty, and also there's a gap

The same situation with:
- 149 and 156 76mm M27 FG (both should have suggested icon 2109)
- 152 and 158 76mm K36 FG
- 87 and 134 122mm H 09 Bty (these should be changed to something else, as off-map arty, anyway)
- 90 and 144 152mm H 09 Bty

Units 80 and 81 122mm H 09 FH differ in radio at least. Maybe all were going to differ, but it wasn't finished?

[DRG]

Originally Posted by Pibwl

Units 80 and 81 122mm H 09 FH differ in radio at least. Maybe all were going to differ, but it wasn't finished?

It's been like that since DOS. Half way through 1941 they become "rare". I searched back to 2002 and found that then 81 had HEAT ammo added 6/41 and that somewhere between 2002 and 2004 the HEAT was removed. There is a good chance the unit was left in to prevent screwing up scenarios. In any event it may be odd but not "wrong" and anyone actually PLAYING THE GAME ( instead of playing the OOB's...) would never notice


.......and I was serious when I said my plate is full. Finish up the Finns then take the rest of the year off.......... OK ?

Don

[Pibwl]

Originally Posted by DRG

.......and I was serious when I said my plate is full. Finish up the Finns then take the rest of the year off.......... OK ?

Don

...the Finns, the Poles (which both are almost complete), and the Soviets, which have been already started?... (mostly simpler picture and availability issues anyway)
OK?

Michal

[Pibwl]

Rest:

04 Vickers 6s - name should be Vickers 6 ton or just Vickers, as they were commonly known (I've consulted with Jaeger Platoon's owner)

79, 86 105mm H 37 FH - picture is German 105mm leFH-18. I'm uploading a proposed photo (not very good, but it's had to find item)

154 105mm K29 FG - it should be a battery, but if we keep also a single gun, it needs twin-tail icon

259, 260 Patrol Boat - pictures are in fact Finnish torpedo boats, correct one for Finnish VMV patrol boats is 23566.
Better icon for these boats is 710.
There was also variant with 40mm Bofors AA gun (available, say, like unit 260)

261 Torpedo Boat - picture is Italian WWI MAS, correct is 23565

262 Torpedo Boat - correct picture for late Finnish boats of Italian design is 23564. They should be available from 1/43 only (now 4/42)

It's worth also to add a gunboat, armed with two 75mm guns and MGs, existing picture 23563, icon eg. 708, used from 1/30


336 Marksman - I guess he should have #1 rifle, not a sniper rile, like unit 333?

As for snipers: note, that according to Jaeger Platoon, "Finnish military had failed to introduce sniper rifle of their own in any real numbers" before the war. There were only small test parties. Only during the war the situation improved with captured material, and then own designs. (When Winter War started in 30th of November 1939 only 84 of the ordered 250 Physica scopes had been manufactured and none had been yet installed to rifles. )

364 Curtiss Hawk 75 - Finnish picture is 23575 - I'm uploading a proposed photo.


Possible additions as for tractors:
- Italian Pavesi from 1928 (http://www.jaegerplatoon.net/ARTILLERY6.htm) (unit 422 from Italy)
- Stalinets tractor from 1/40 (343 in Soviet OOB, but it wasn't armoured)

According to http://www.jaegerplatoon.net/ARTILLERY6.htm also McCormick TD-14 bulldozers were bought from USA during Winter War

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I'm attaching several suggestions, including a photo of a Finnish 47mm Bohler gun (unit 040) - they had full wheel discs.

That's all as for now.

[PvtJoker]

Some additional minor corrections:

Bunker stuff:

Unit 095: no bunkers with two under-armor gun positions were available during the Winter War. In fact gun-armed bunkers were extremely rare in general, so I would give this a radio code 93 (at least until summer 1940). The 76mm gun could be replaced by a Suomi SMG (weapon 227), which was often used for close defense of bunkers.

Unit 097: as far as I know, no captured 45mm ATGs were installed in any bunkers during the Winter War. The availability of this unit should start in June 1940 concurring with the first concrete bunkers of the Salpa-line.

Unit 098: the 75mm ATG was too big to be installed in under-armor positions of the Salpa-line, so only open gun pits were prepared for it. On the other hand the bunker version of the 76mm M27 IG was used, with improved Finnish AP since 12/1942 and HEAT ammunition since July 1944. (See the Finnish Weapons thread). The guns were captured in 1941, but if you don't want to do three different versions of this bunker, the current availability of 5/1943 is quite okay.

Unit 114: coastal artillery piece, should be unit class 254. Turret side armor should be 0.

Unit 115: coastal artillery piece, should be unit class 254.

Units 304, 305, 310, & 311: there's no record of the 20mm Madsen AT guns ever being installed in concrete pillboxes. Some may have been installed in earth & log bunkers during the Continuation War. So these units should either be re-nationalized, removed or changed to earth & log bunkers with availability since April 1940 (this is speculative, but plausible use for them for what-if scenarios). Perhaps eliminate the ones with heavy concrete bunker armament (several HMGs)?

Units 308, 309, 314 & 315: no sabot (APCR) ammunition was available for the 45mm ATG.

AA (machine) gun stuff:

Unit 046: the 20mm Breda AA gun had a reasonably good reflector AA sight, so no reason to give it lower FC and RF values than other similar weapons, which usually have 2 in both. This unfortunately affects many other OOBs as well.

Unit 048: for some reason has RF value of 1; for example the British OOB has 2.

A side note: I think that AA guns with a computing predictor sight such as the 40mm Bofors, Soviet and German 37mm guns should have a higher FC (i.e. 3) than guns with a reflector sight. Currently they all seem to have FC 2. I don't know how much difference that would make in actual gameplay, though, since I haven't experimented with it. I also do not say it should be implemented for the next update.

Unit 161: should have the same image as Unit 160. The current one is a regular water-cooled single barrel Maxim M/32-33 on an AA mount. The M/40 AAMG had improved AA sights over the M/31, so FC could perhaps be raised to 2 (Then again, it did not have a reflector sight, but just a more sophisticated pivoted ring sight instead of the original fixed ring sight).

The fact that the units 160 & 161 have a wrong weapon configuration has already been discussed earlier.

Note: all Maxim M/32-33 were provided with a simple AA sight and AA extension for the tripod, so they could be used as AAMGs. However, that was rarely done because they were more badly needed in their primary role as regular HMGs. Whether a unit representing the M/32-33 in AA configuration should be added or not is up to you, but at least you already have an image for it