Polish OOB2 corrections/suggestions (v.6)

[Pibwl]

Promised 75mm wz.02/26 pictures.

[zastava128]

Originally Posted by DRG

Exactly, and nobody had a better idea when we first put it in either.

Don

What about this flag: http://flags.nava.org/images/poland/...oples_army.png

Again, it's not exclusively communist (save the crownless eagle), but it was historically used by them on some occasions.

[Pibwl]

Originally Posted by zastava128

What about this flag: http://flags.nava.org/images/poland/...oples_army.png

Again, it's not exclusively communist (save the crownless eagle), but it was historically used by them on some occasions.

It is the first time I see it. Seems, that this is a distorted unit's standard, but it should be square, like this one http://flags.nava.org/images/poland/..._ussr_1943.png , and this is not a country flag.

[Pibwl]

400 37mm AT-Gun - I've just acquired a new source, which states, that it was actually deployed to units from 1/37.
A limber had 80 rounds: 16 HE and 64 AP.


tankettes:
425 TK-3 - this tankette is begging for a new picture, instead of SP-1 vintage caricature I'll attach some in next posts.
In the future, it is worth to create a camouflaged icon replacing a green one (like 2787 - TKS and 2791 - TKS 20mm) - they were all camouflaged.
The first batch was delivered in 4/32 (now 9/31) (not counting pre-series of ordinary steel) [Magnuski]

426 TKS - picture as above (besides, it shows something more similar to TK-3)
Armament should be 229 wz.25 MG, like TK-3.

BTW: I don't want to overturn all rules, but why BMG has a range of only 10, if it was an ordinary MMG, and its coaxial version has a range of 24?... The tankettes are therefore handicapped in the game (apart from the British Carden-Loyd, which uses CMG)

TK-3 should have FC 0 and RF 0 (like other nations' tankettes), while TKS should have FC=1 (scope sight).

There should be added also Carden-Loyd VI tankette, like British 856, but probably armed with 222 wz.30 CMG [Magnuski], used in 1/30 to some 33.

Formations:
403 Recce Tank Trp (could be renamed Plt, to be more consistent with Polish nomenclature) - earliest unit should be Carden-Loyd from 1/30
It should be available until 10/39 - only few troops received gun-armed TKS

404 Recce Tank Sqdn - last date as above. First date should be somewhat later - around 1/33 will be better (now 1/35) (they didn't exist during a peacetime, and were to be organized during mobilization)

405 Recce Tank Trp - there should be 2 tankettes with a gun. I suggest to rename it "Recce Tank Plt+" or something like that.

406 Recce Tank Sqdn - a commander had ordinary MG-armed tankette (there were only plans to give him gun-armed one). I suggest to rename it "Recce Tank Sqd+" or something like that.

408 Armoured Bn HQ - it should be used until 10/39 (as formation 403)
A name should be just "Armoured Bn", or, preferably "Armoured Bat." or "Batt." to make it more consistent with Polish abbreviation (bat.). They were recce units of Cavalry Brigades, not HQ.
According to this page: http://wp39.struktury.net/dywizjon-p...dywizjonu.html there might be added a car carrying an AAMG, if you think it's a good idea.

409 Armoured Bn HQ - as above, apart from date. A tankette should be MG-armed. Name could be changed to "Armoured Bat.+" etc.


427 TKS.m - such designation was not used. I suggest "TKS nkm" or "TKS /nkm" (nkm = Heaviest MG).

428 C7P tractor - it had no radio


post-1940 armoured cars
429 Mrmn-Hrngtn IV - a picture shows Humber. They were however used only from 5/45 until 10/45 for training (now 1/43-3/44) [Magnuski]. Radio should be x1.

430 Mrmn-Hrngtn II - used from 5/42 until about 10/43 (now 3/41-3/42).
It would be good to fit it with Mk.II picture - now it has Mk.III (I've proposed one in the British oob).
Maybe a more natural name would be Marmon-Herr, or M-H ?

They were the first armoured cars used by the Polish after 1939 - it would need changes in formation 287.

431 Humber Mk.III - used only for training in 6/42-10/43. Radio should be x1. Picture is Mk.IV (I've proposed a picture in the British oob)

432 Humber Mk.I - not used by the Polish.
Could be replaced with Fox Mk.I (Canadian-built) - used from some 10/43 until some 12/45, also in combat.
The same specifications, but armed with 0.50 Browning and 0.30 Browning, radio=71, crew=4.

433 Scout Mk.II - it should be Humber Scout II. Used from around 6/44 only (now 8/40).

434 Scout Mk.I - as above, used from around 12/43 (now 7/40 - a production started in 1943). In 380-381 unit in the British oob I wrote, that there's no information, that I and II differed in armour - only mechanical changes are mentioned. But I've found no precise info on their armour (they say "max 14 mm" for all variants).

435 Ironside Mk.II [scout veh] - used by the Polish in a small quantity - according to Magnuski, only "towards the end of the war" (no precise info when), and rather they weren't used in combat. It isn't clear, if Mk.II was used at all.
Otherwise, comments as for the British oob (icon, picture etc).

436 Ironside Mk.I [scout veh] - rather certainly didn't used by the Polish.
Otherwise, comments as for the British oob.

437 Mrmn-Hrngtn III - used from 5/43 until some 10/43 for training

From armoured cars, there could be eventually added:
- Beaverette IV used from some 1/41 until some 1943 for training only (#373 in the British oob) [class scout veh?],.
- Morris LRC - suggested to be added to the British oob, used from 11/42

Michal

[Pibwl]

CS tanks

439 Crusader II-CS - Crusaders CS were received only around 2/43 (now 1/42).

440 Crusader I-CS - not used.

Since Poland never used unit 011 Matilda II-CS, we'll need a Valentine VIII classified as CS Tank, available in 2/43-9/43, to fill a gap in formation 377 Cruiser Tk Sqdn (in this period there were used Crusaders CS in units formed in UK, and no CS tanks in units formed in ME, using Valentines)

Therefore, formation 377 Cruiser Tk Sqdn should start at 2/43 (now 9/42), while earlier formation 378 Cruiser Tk Sqdn should be extended to 1/43.


445 C4P Art Tractor - max speed was 35 km/h (12 - now 16). Crew should be 2 (4)

446 Boys Carrier - used from early 1941 (7/40).
It should be earliest unit of Scout Vehicle class - needs change in formation 288 Rec Reg Sct Tp (now available: 07/40-05/43).
Carry should be 104 (now 102)

-------------------------------------------------

Vickers Mk.E tanks

Information on Vickers tanks is based upon a detailed research article by Rafał Białkowski (of course, apart from a page http://derela.republika.pl/vickers.htm)

Correct name for all is Vickers Mk.E type A/B, not Mk.A/B. It could be just Vickers E typ A/B ("typ" is type in Polish).

Short chronology:
- 6/32 - only 38 twin-turret tanks armed with wz.25 MGs
- mid-33 (say, 8/33) - 16 rearmed with 13.2mm MGs, 6 rearmed with short 37 mm
- mid-34 (say, 8/34) - started conversion of 22 tanks to single-turret - all tanks with wz.25 MGs and 37mm guns wiped out by the end of year
- 11/36 (or earlier) - twin-turret tanks with 13.2mm being converted to wz.30 MGs, 13.2mm disappear by the end of 1937 (or earlier)


449 Vickers E Mk.A (armed with wz.25 MGs - earliest) - they were delivered from 6/32 (now 1/30), used until end of 1934 (now 7/34).
Better photo of earliest twin-turret tank is 30225.

In my opinion it should have a camouflaged icon 3472, like newer tanks, despite this icon has modified air intakes (they were camouflaged from a beginning, never green).


450 Vickers E Mk.B (Vickers E typ B) - first single turret tanks were converted in mid-34, because first turrets were delivered in 3/34 (now starts at 1/34).
This unit, available at best for two months (6-7/34), seems redundant, since we have unit 644 following it from 8/34, that can be as well available from 6/34. This unit is probably only meant to represent earliest model without air intakes.
If it is removed, a template unit in formations should be changed to 644.


639 Vickers E Mk.A (armed with 13.2 TMG) - used from mid-33 - might be 8/33 (now 8/34).

640 Vickers E Mk.A (armed with 37mm gun) - used from mid-33 - might be 8/33 until end of 1934 only (now 8/34-10/37).
A photo 29426 is in fact late variant with twin wz.30 MGs (and air intakes). I'll attach a correct Vickers with 37 mm.
It is better reclassified to Cavalry Tank, so that they can play a role of an interim gun tank (before advent of Type B).

641 Vickers E Mk.A (armed with wz.25 MGs, with modified air intakes) - in fact, wz.25 MG armed tanks were used only until the end of 1934 (then, for several years, only 13.2mm and single turret ones).
Therefore, IMO this unit is redundant, for unit 449 can be well used a few months longer. The only difference is supposed to be modified air intakes, but there was no strict date of their adoption.

642 Vickers E Mk.A (armed with final wz.30 MGs) - used at least from 11/36 (11/37)
Photo 30225 is earliest tank, without air intakes - correct is 29426. I'll attach a better copy.


644 Vickers E Mk.B - can be available from some 6/34 (now 8/34) - see unit 450 above.
The tank is supposed to be in early camo, but the photo is late camo. I'll attach a better one.

645 Vickers E Mk.B - much better photo for a late tank is 27618

646 Vickers E Mk.B - much better photo for a late tank is 27618.
Radio=82 is too optimistic. It isn't clear what radio equipment these tanks got in 1939, but 52 would be closer to truth.

Edit:
I'll deal with formations tomorrow


Regards
Michal

[Pibwl]

Vickers E formations:

373 Vickers Tk Sec - Available: 09/30-10/39 - should be from 6/32 (as unit 449). However, a section of two tanks, especially twin-turret ones, is in fact unnecessary, when we have platoons. A section of two single-turret tanks from 6/34 would be more useful, although it's also unnecessary.

384 Vickers Tk Pl - Available: 09/30-12/33 - should be from 6/32 until 7/33 (Type A tanks only)
Now it uses 99-nation tank as a template (could be 449).

385 Vickers Tk Co - Available: 09/30-12/33 - as above

It would be most real-like to create interim formations with 37mm-armed tanks, considering, that there were only 6 - IF unit 640 Vickers E Mk.A is reclassified to Cavalry Tank:

Vickers Tk Pl - from 8/33 until 5/34, with two Cavalry tanks (eg.644) and three Light cavalry tanks (eg.449)

Vickers Tk Co - from 8/33 until 5/34, with 449 Light cavalry tank and three platoons as above

Otherwise, formations below could start at 8/33, but then a company will have more 37mm-gun armed tanks, than it was available.

386 Vickers Tk Pl - Available: 01/34-09/39 - should be available from 6/34 until 10/39.
Proportion of A and B tanks is correct, but a commander's tank should be Type B (more natural would be to place three Type B tanks first at all).
As I wrote, unit 450 is IMO redundant, and could be replaced in a template with eg. 644.

387 Vickers Tk Co - Available: 01/34-09/39 - as above.
A commander's tank should also be Type B.

--------

I'm attaching proposed or better pictures for Vickers, TK-3, TKS and Polish 40mm Bofors. Two are proposed for units 640 and 644.

[Pibwl]

451 7TP wczesny (name, meaning "early", should be changed just to 7TP)
459 7TP - as was stated in other place, both should have no sabot.
Despite common info, according to a research by K. Rudy the tanks with guns were completed and ready only after 6/38 (7/38 should be OK).
Early and late tanks could differ in radio chance only: first one could end in some 6/39 and have some 30 radio chance, second one could start in some 7/39 and have around 50 radio chance (it seems, that only platoons' commanders received radios anyway).

Formations:
383 Medium Tank Sec,
388 Medium Tank Pl,
389 Medium Tank Co should be modified accordingly - and they all should be renamed to Light Tank (it was an official classification).
For a sake of consistency, it's worth to re-classify units 451, 459 as Light Tanks as well (there are no others at that time - they are Med Tanks now).


452 R-35 - better name is Renault R-35.

However, formations: 214 Renault Tank, 215 Renault Platoon, 216 Renault Company should be renamed to R-35 Tank etc, so that they are not confused with basic Renaults in the Polish service, ie. FT.


455 7TP
467 7TP wczesny - although it wasn't their designation, but twin turret tanks could be named "7TP dw." for a sake of convenience (=dwuwieżowy - twin-turret).
Both tanks differ only in icon, and so shall it be.

They should be reclassified eg. to 15 Close Support Tank, so that they are not in mixed formations with FT-18 (formation 380).

There should be new formations of 7TP dw (names are proposals):
Lt Tank Pl (MG) - 7/36 - 9/39 - 5 tanks
Lt Tank Co (MG) - 7/36 - 6/38 - 1 tank + 3 platoons (later most were converted to single-turret)


460 7TP Spychacz (dozer) - it was designed in 1939 only [Magnuski] (now 1/38) and almost certainly remained only a prototype. There are not even known photos.
If we keep it, formation 028 should start later (and might be renamed Prototype Plough or so).

461 Panhard 178 - not used by the Polish. According to a common knowledge, the Polish didn't use any armoured cars in combat in France, however a recent article claims, that at least 3 Laffly 50 were given to the 10th Motorized Brigade in 5/40 and used for training in a recce company. Therefore, it could be replaced with Laffly 50 (unit 391 in a French oob - although a picture 15015 is in fact Laffly 80)

A formation 354 Armd Car Pl should be modified accordingly (with 3 cars, from 5/40).

.

[PvtJoker]

Originally Posted by Pibwl

BTW: I don't want to overturn all rules, but why BMG has a range of only 10, if it was an ordinary MMG, and its coaxial version has a range of 24?... The tankettes are therefore handicapped in the game (apart from the British Carden-Loyd, which uses CMG)
Michal

The reason why BMG's have a limited range is, if I remember correctly, because in a typical tank with a turret they are mounted quite low, but even more importantly, the vision devices available to the gunner were quite poor and often the elevation of the BMG was fairly limited as well. All those combined limited the effective range of the BMGs in the mind of the designers, which is fair enough, although there of course would have been differences in how limiting those factors were in different vehicles. As a generalization it is still quite reasonable, since there is limited data available about the actual details of the BMG position in many tanks and the designers could not climb inside the vehicles to check it. The limitation, IIRC, goes back all the way to the original SP.

That said, the assumption that the main weapon position of tankettes is similar to the BMG position in larger tanks is just faulty logic and not a reasonable generalization. I am have little knowledge about details of the Polish tankettes, but at least in the original Carden-Loyd and the Italian CV series tankettes both the machine gun elevation and vision from the commander-gunners position was fairly good, especially if unbuttoned. Vision from a buttoned-up vehicle was of course not as good, but still better than most BMG position I have seen. So, I don't think the tankette main MGs should be called BMGs at all or considered analogous the them. They should have the same range as regular CMGs and TMGs.

[Pibwl]

I agree - all tankettes should be given TMGs.
In the Polish TK-3, an MG had ordinary open sights, in case of TKS it was mounted in a ball mounting, with a scope, and 20 deg of elevation. So they can't be worse, than infantry's HMGs.

(BTW: it will be another story, but Italian early tankettes should have single 6.5mm MG, not a twin).

Michal

[Pibwl]

456 FT-17 - a proper picture for MG-armed FT is eg. 27560.
It seems, that official name was just Renault FT (sometimes called in documents "Renault M 17 FT").

457 FT-18 - name FT-18 was never used in Poland. I suggest a name "Renault FT 37mm".

There is a problem with formation 381 Inf Tank Co, because it should have no commander's tank. Maybe it should be replaced with utility car? Or we'd have to live with a a small inconsistency.


462 PZL P-37A Los - correct designation of bombers is PZL-37A Los or PZL.37A Los, without "P"
It concerns also units 581-584

Unit 462 PZL-37A should be slower - 4 (now 5) (less than 400 km/h)

Unit 582 PZl-37B, with 100-kg bombs, could have radio 92, as most typical.

464 PZL P-23A Karas - the same, correct designation is just PZL-23 or PZL.23, without "P".
Same for 613-615.