Drone and Anti-Drone Tactics? - Page 3

Q · #21 January 29th, 2002, 06:49 PM

quote:
Originally posted by geoschmo:
You have a point there, but I am not sure what could be done about it. Part of the definition of Drones, whether we like it or not, is that they can't be recovered once they are launched. I don't see that being changed. And there is no function to prevent them from being launched in combat that I am aware of. I suppose you could build a space station in orbit with cargo bays and no drone launchers and store them there.

Yes I see there is a problem and I have no ideal solution.
What might be possible:
1.) The AI seems to be able to calculate the chance to win a combat. At least that's what I suppose why frequently ships do not attack if the AI feels outnumbered. If you apply this calculation program to decide a.) if it's necessary to launch the drones at all b) how many drones are probably needed to win the combat you might have quite a good solution.
2.) Make a difference for drone recovery if attacking (no recovery possible) and defending (automatic recovery at the end of the combat).

The way it is now you have a superior strategy against drones: just attack with one drone (or even a fighter) and the enemy will launch all his drones (and eventually lose them!) in that sector.

And one more question: In the demo you can give only the order to attack for drones, no order "move to". Is that true for the full Version? I think this would prevent greatly one use for drones I supposed to be very important: reconnaissance.

geoschmo · #22 January 29th, 2002, 07:20 PM

quote:
Originally posted by Q:
And one more question: In the demo you can give only the order to attack for drones, no order "move to". Is that true for the full Version? I think this would prevent greatly one use for drones I supposed to be very important: reconnaissance.

Yes, in the full Version there is still only an attack order for drones, no move too. In fact you can't even change targets unless the original target is destroyed or manages to escape. (cloaking, warping into a system with no line of sight) If the target is destroyed or lost you can then give the drone a new attack order.

Jourin · #23 January 29th, 2002, 07:59 PM

I am disappointed that drones have no move to. I envisioned using them as reconnaissance for Warp points so I wouldn't loose a manned ship to mines.
I also thought they would be good minesweepers for a warp point assault. I agree that to attack a ship you need to target in advance.

I also agree that drones should be unrecoverable.

I hope I will be able to use drones for the above missions or modify the files to achieve that capability.

Bman · #24 January 29th, 2002, 08:24 PM

If you want to use a drone for reconnaisance on a warppoint to see if it is defended/mined, then I suppose you could do this (If you have seen the system before or are Ancient Race): give a drone the order to attack a planet in the system (I am hoping you can give this order even for empty planets since you don't know which planets have colonies or not without any ships in there...if they limit the Attack to planets with colonies then you could try attacking all the planets to discover which had colonies!). Your drone should warp into the system and move towards the planet. You'll definately know whether it hit any defenses on the warppoint or what is in the system even.

Q · #25 January 29th, 2002, 08:49 PM

quote:
Originally posted by Bman:
If you want to use a drone for reconnaisance on a warppoint to see if it is defended/mined, then I suppose you could do this (If you have seen the system before or are Ancient Race): give a drone the order to attack a planet in the system (I am hoping you can give this order even for empty planets since you don't know which planets have colonies or not without any ships in there...if they limit the Attack to planets with colonies then you could try attacking all the planets to discover which had colonies!). Your drone should warp into the system and move towards the planet. You'll definately know whether it hit any defenses on the warppoint or what is in the system even.

At least in the demo Version it is not possible to give drones an attack order for a planet in a system where you don't have any ships.
I don't see any reason why drones can't have the "move to" order and really hope that this will be changed.
I fully agree that the inability to recover drones is crucial but some sort of control over the drone launch is needed if they are to be useful.
Don't misunderstand my post: I am enthusiastic about drones, but I think to get the full possibilities some hard coded changes have to be made by MM in a future patch IMHO. Or what are the opinions of the beta-testers on this point?

mac5732 · #26 January 29th, 2002, 09:03 PM

Geo, you said a line of sight from ship, does this include a cloaked sat in the system? this would enhance the use of cloaked sats hidden in systems, or doesn't sats able to give line of sight for drones use ?

I also agree that drones should be left un-retrievable, otherwise they become all to encampassing and to strong of a weapon, but a move to order would be nice, have them sit in a system until a target appears and then whamm, espcially if they can cloak.

The real question is, is the AI capable of using the drone capabilities as has been stated in this thread on a continuous basis?

just some ideas mac

geoschmo · #27 January 29th, 2002, 09:22 PM

I'm going to back off one of of my earlier statements because there were some changes made to drones late in the beta phase they I did not fully test. Others on the beta team did test the drones a lot, but I was more concerned with some other issues, mainly PBW related stuff and TCP/IP.

I am not certain they they can be launched against just planets. They may need to be colonies, and they may need line of sight as well.

As far as what constitutes line of sight, a cloaked sat should do just fine. Anything that allows you to see what is occuring in the system at the moment. Mines would not, but about anything else would.

I can tell you that the only difference between the drones in the gold demo and what is supposed to be on the gold CD is that you will get more tech levels which will result in larger drones. As far as what they can do and how they act there should be no difference. You should be able to test all this stuff with the demo and get your answers. If I get time I will try it myself, but I can't promise anything.

Geoschmo

[ 29 January 2002: Message edited by: geoschmo ]

PvK · #28 January 29th, 2002, 09:57 PM

Yes, Last I checked, drones could only target seen enemy targets, so they couldn't go into systems where you didn't have a current view. A cloaked ship or satellite will provide this.

I agree "move to" would be a great addition, and expect a collective whine will get it in an early post-Gold patch.

As for the speed question, I think it's the same as ship speed for what you throw on it, plus 1-3, depending on drone tech level. So low tech = speed 7, highest in the normal tech set would be something like 6 + 3 + 3 + 3 = 15, or 16 if "propulsion expert" counts.

PvK

Q · #29 January 29th, 2002, 10:19 PM

quote:
Originally posted by mac5732:
The real question is, is the AI capable of using the drone capabilities as has been stated in this thread on a continuous basis?

This is difficult to judge from the demo Version. What I've seen is that the AI builds relatively few drones (1 per colony), so it takes a long time till the drone carriers are full. This can easily be changed in the full Version. I see much more problems in the fact that once a drone carrier has any enemy contact (e.g. a colony ship) it will launch all its drones, which will be destroyed later if no other target is available. Considering the relatively high construction cost of drones that might be quite a problem for the AI.
The same is true for drones as a defense for colonies. If there is an attack all drones will be used and there will be no more protection for a second attack.
I believe as it is now drones will be a problem for the AI especially against human players. Therefore I will be very careful to introduce them in my AI modifications.

[ 29 January 2002: Message edited by: Q ]

geoschmo · #30 January 29th, 2002, 10:28 PM

Slightly off-topic here, but for those of you that do decide to buy the Gold CD. One of my personal contributions is a scenario in which you are unable to research any tech and you are limited in weapons to drone warheads, and point defense.

The idea was that all combat would be via drones. I was thinking of the star trek episode where the planets coducted their war via long range missles and never sent manned ships against each other. You can use your ships to ram I suppose though.

Should be interesting to play. I hope it is anyway. In my tests the AI was building drones and deploying them in semi-logical ways. Drone carriers, etc.

Geoschmo