MA: Jomon: The Courts of the Ryu - Looking for insight

[shatner]

Originally Posted by kianduatha

I disagree on the Saigu--the idea is there and they are a very valuable addition to your lineup. They'd be better with a second random(or even better a linked random so they get 2 in a path all the time), but even as-is they're terrific force enhancers. You get easy access to H3 and up, power of the spheres, reinvig in communions(mmm), and a more efficient base to start arrow fending guys. No need for something spectacular.

If the Seigu ends up as a S2H2 + 1xAA/EE/FF/NN/WW that'd be fine provided it was fairly inexpensive. A 4-path, 2-holy cap-only mage is fairly uninspiring by MA standards, but make it cheap and it could work since the nation already has a super-expensive, recruit anywhere underwater dragon mage.

That said, I think kianduatha is overstating the usefulness of the five sign spells within a communion. Let's break 'em down:

Air: This one is the nicest since it hits an ever widening area (scales with holy power) with sermon of courage and air shield. However, only 1 in 5 Seigu can cast this and by the time I'm sending out large communions, I'm usually well on my way to arrow fend if that's a priority for me. Good but not amazing.

Earth: Hits one demon with an easy-resist, shorter range soul slay. That's a pretty big waste of an action for a communion master.

Fire: Hits one unit with an easy-resist charm spell. This is better, especially if you deck out your caster with penetration-boosting items. Still, anything worth casting it on is going to have at least a decent MR meaning any success is a statistical outlier. For everything it can succeed reliably against, your better off dropping some communion-boosted evocation on instead.

Nature: Bestows the caster and all communion slaves with Power of the Spheres, without requiring an astral pearl. Nice, certainly, but since PotS isn't exactly expensive or out of Jomon's research path (conjuration), it isn't anything to write home about. Note that this does NOT stack with PotS... nor does it scale in any way.

Water: I don't actually know how much fatigue this spell removes, or whether that amount scales with holy power or not. However, it would only really be worth scripting in a communion with a whole lot of slaves (preferably a reverse communion). Depending on how much fatigue it removes, it might approximate what a blood mage can do with reinvigoration. However, Jomon can already get this benefit from the recruit-anywhere Envoy of Ryu (guaranteed to have at least W1H1) and a crystal matrix (which almost 2 out of every 5 Onmyo-ji can forge).

[legowarrior]

What if we got ride of the Shugjena, and replaced the Seigu with
Master of the Fivefold Path, a Capital only unit
H2 F:1, A:1, W:1, E:1 N:1 FAWEN +1

Even as I write this, I'm not a huge fan of it.

[legowarrior]

Update!

Sites
Enclave of the Ryu - 2 Water,
Imperial Shrine - 1 Air, 1 Nature, 1 Earth

Castle Units
Ashigaru Spearman (Yari)- Same is later era

Ashigaru Bowmen (Shortbows) - Similar to bandits without stealth

Attendent (Naginata) - Similar Stat to later era Samurai but with less protection (Jingasa instead of Kabuto)

Attendant (NO-Dachi) - Same as a above

Samurai Archer - Similar stat to O-ban or Go-Hatamoto, but with the weapons and armor of the Samurai Archer.

Samurai Cavalry - Same Stat line of Cavalry but with Samurai Armor instead of heavy samurai armor. (Might do an archer version, but mount archery comes later in the history of Japan)

?Wokou - Two Wakizashi, Samurai Armor, no helmets, although not from the correct period, they fit the era, don't you think?

?Onni-Bushi - Naginata, Samurai Armor, Jingasa, Immune to Seduction, Patrol Bonus. High Morale, but everything else is basic. Build them to patrol a region. Female units that existed.

Shrine Units - everywhere
None

Underwater units
Shrimp Soldier - Same as later era

Shark Warrior - Same as later era

Capital specific
Enclave of the Ryu (Site)
Shark Warriors - Same as above

Imperial Shrine (Site)
?Miko - Sacred Bow (true story) Imperial Robe, Jingasa,
Idea - When blessed, bows do double damage to undead and demons (Can that be done?)

Castle Leaders
Gokenin - Same as later era, but without heavy samurai armor, and with longbow.

Mounted Gokenin - Same as later era but without heavy samurai armor

?Jito - Wakizashi, Ashigaru Armor, Jingasa, Weaker, decent leader with patrol bonus. Like the Eunuch, but with all parts attached

Shugo - Better version of the Mounted Gokenin.

?Wokou Captain - Same as the unit. Decent Leader (40) and has sailing and 25% of Air and 25% of Water (7/16 chance of a magic user, 1/16 chance of having both)

Shrine
Monk of the five folds - As a the later eras

Laboratory
?Shugenja - Same as later era!

Onmyo-ji - Same as later era, but younger, and maybe a better chance of predicting events. I don't know.

Shrine/Laboratory
?Envoy of the Ryu - Holy 1, Water 1, +1 FAWEN. Amphibious and can take 10 units underwater. Basically a cool priest of water, with some magic.

Underwater
Ryujin - Same as later era

Crab General - Same as later era

?Envoy of the Ryu - Same as above

Capital Specific
Enclave of the Ryu
Ryujin - Same as above and the later era

Imperial Shrine
?Saigu - H2, 1 Earth, 1 Air, 1 Nature, +1 FAWENx2 Immune to Seduction, Healing 50%, Awe 0, movement 2
Female relatives of the Emperor, chosen to be trained as priests.

Spells available -
Summon Karasu Tengu
Ambush of Tigers
Summon Konoha Tengus
Contact Dai Tengu
Contact Nushi
Contack Kitsune
Contact Jigami
Contact Mori-no-kami
Sommun Ujigami
Contact Kaijin
Contact Tatsu
Summon Kenzoku
Summon Goz Mezu
Contact Yama-no-kami
Teaching Sign
Fear-not Sign
Welcome Sign
Earth-Touching Sign
Meditation Sign

[rdonj]

Originally Posted by legowarrior

Miko - Sacred Bow (true story) Imperial Robe, Jingasa,
Idea - When blessed, bows do double damage to undead and demons (Can that be done?)

There are two ways I could imagine this maybe theoretically working. One, you have a self bless spell that targets your priest and gives them a bless that #nextspells a personal demon cleansing. The other method would be to #nextspell a transformation into a form with a blessed bow. It's been long enough since I've modded I'm not entirely sure whether either would work or not.

Alternatively, and far easier and more likely to work, don't make them bless themselves to use the blessed bow, they're a priest anyway and they'll probably be doing some blessing before they start shooting anyway, or you can assume the bows were blessed outside of the battle. It won't really make a big difference in the long run.

[kianduatha]

That new version of a Saigu is interesting--it doesn't look like much, but most of them would be able to pack quite easily E5 or A4(A5 in a storm) or N5 in a battle. Even the F ones can get F4 in a pinch in-combat, but their real benefit is as army buffers it sounds like.

Agreed on simply giving the Miko just plain bows that do bad things to demons. It just works, and I don't think there is a way of giving them a special spell that wouldn't give all your priests the ability to get demon killing weapons.

[legowarrior]

Miko are sacred Units.

[shatner]

I have been away number crunching; I see I've missed some recent developments. To help inform us on how magically powerful to make the Seigu, as well as how much it should cost, I've gone and compared all the top mages from the Middle Era and determined things like Average Gold Cost, Average Upkeep, Average Highest Path, Average Total Paths, and Average Cost Per Path. These are further broken down between cap-only mages and recruit-anywhere mages. The overall numbers are the following:

Average Gold Cost = 296.3
Average Max Path = 3.4
Average Total Paths = 6.3
Average Cost Per Path = 47


Therefore the latest 7-path Seigu should cost 329 => 330gp and it'll be in-line with the cost of its peers.

[legowarrior]

Maybe she is a bit too powerful. I should probably get rid of Awe and make her old with 1 movement. But thanks for the info, that is really cool.

[legowarrior]

The more that I think about it, the more I want her to be the same price as the Celestial Master.
H:2, F:1, A:1, W:1, E:1, N:1 + FAWEN x 110%?

[shatner]

Based on the data I've compiled, I'd make the Saigu something like this:
Saigu, E1A1N1H2 + 1xFF/AA/WW/EE/NN + .1xFAWEN, 340gp, Immune to Seduction, Healing 50%, barely old(-1 stats), Map Move-1

Now her cost is strickly average and she's like a cross between the Celestial Master and the Imperial Alchemist. This is especially appropriate because the Imperial Alchemist has a similar FAWEN path theme as well as healing. She is sacred and can hit A/E/N3 60% of the time which justifies her being more expensive and slower than the Imperial Alchemist. Plus, one of T'ien Ch'i's themes is "cheaper than average mages with low, diverse paths", so it makes sense that Jomon's capstone mage is a bit costlier.

The fact that Jomon has weak priests but seemingly decent sacred units doesn't matter so much since that sacred is an archer so you can stick the lowly H1 blessing them well out of harms way while they pepper the enemy from afar.

Originally Posted by legowarrior

The more that I think about it, the more I want her to be the same price as the Celestial Master.
H:2, F:1, A:1, W:1, E:1, N:1 + FAWEN x 110%?

Realize that the Celestial Master is cheaper than he "should" be. Having cheap, diverse mages is T'ien Ch'i's schtick. Based on the average, the Celestial Master should cost 380gp. Similarly, the greatest mage of the entire age is the Bakemono Sorcerer. He's got more non-divine paths than any other caster (9.1), is sacred, recruit-anywhere!!!, map move-2, costs only 300gp, reliably hits a 3 in one path and is tougher than your average mage. Having hands-down the greatest mage of the era, cheap and recruit-anywhere is one of the things which defines Shinuyama. Both those nations defy the averages for the age because of the larger context of their nation making that okay.

As such, think on the larger context of MA Jomon and what the Saigu is meant to inhabit before you start trying to fine-tune its stats.