DienBienPhu- How difficult to convert?

[iCaMpWiThAWP]

Originally Posted by FASTBOAT TOUGH

Grant,
I'm glad this info was useful and fresh. One of the refs has a picture of the "mine" site which is well maintained by the Vietnamese government. I agree with you the story here was the bravery of the defenders. However of the 12,000+ captured and marched to the "re-education" camps almost 7500 would never make there-such a waste.
Bravery knows no flag, I really learned that standing on a hill called Little Round Top and looking across a field facing Cemetery Ridge in a small town in Pennsylvania called Gettysburg. A difficult situation arose when I looked my wife in the eye and told her "I don't think I could've done what they did and crossed that field". I bow my head to all that have crossed those fields.
I hope this is correct...
le courageux et altruiste doit toujours trouver le chemin du ciel

Anyway happy I could help.

Regards,
Pat

Yes it is, i can't add anything other than that i agree with that.
Oh, and i think the "even-more-correct" way would be: l'altruiste, but since this isn't a french class we can overlook that

[Gurachn]

Originally Posted by FASTBOAT TOUGH

Grant,
I'm glad this info was useful and fresh. One of the refs has a picture of the "mine" site which is well maintained by the Vietnamese government. I agree with you the story here was the bravery of the defenders. However of the 12,000+ captured and marched to the "re-education" camps almost 7500 would never make there-such a waste.
Bravery knows no flag, I really learned that standing on a hill called Little Round Top and looking across a field facing Cemetery Ridge in a small town in Pennsylvania called Gettysburg. A difficult situation arose when I looked my wife in the eye and told her "I don't think I could've done what they did and crossed that field". I bow my head to all that have crossed those fields.
I hope this is correct...
le courageux et altruiste doit toujours trouver le chemin du ciel

Anyway happy I could help.

Regards,
Pat

Hey Pat,
Your comment that 'bravery knows no flag' is especially true for DBP, as although we often think of it as a battle of French against Vietnamese, the 'French' force was incredibly multinational, with the majority having never seen France. A large percentage of the defending force were Vietnamese from the Red river Delta, or T'ai tribesman, with the rest a mix from Algeria, Morocco, and even Senegal.

When I was 15 I took a trip with my dad down to Gettysburg, and also walked across that field in the footsteps of Pettigrew, Picket, et. al.
I remember looking across at where the guns had been and wondering how the hell they could have continue to march while they were being shot to pieces. Were they mad? Were they made of different stuff than us weak modern men?
It wasn't until I did bit of military service myself that I started to realize what might have motivated them to continue into the face of bloody murder.
I think there can develop a kind of bonding among squad mates to the point where the fear of letting down your comrades can actually outweigh the fear of potential death and mutilation.

Walking the grounds that we read about can give you a special understanding of the trials and horrors those long gone heroes faced. Things impossible to appreciate from books of TV docus. But in walking them alone you can never really understand their motivations.

[Mallard57]

This is my first post to the Forum, although I have been playing the game for a number of years (my sincere thanks go to the team for this marvellous game)!

Some time ago I began researching some of the history of Vietnam, and felt it would be good to create some battle scenarios that had not been covered by other people.

So here is my scenario to cover this siege which I hope others may enjoy, and maybe suggest improvements to. Of course there is no substitute for properly modelling the battle in a Campaign format, my excuse was time available.

This is a long game 90 moves,with one map containing many imperfections (and interpretations) as you might expect with such a large area to capture in one map. I have tried to include as many units as I can from references, within the limits available. This has led to some oversize units, which are challeging to finish off in the battle. Enjoy.

[Gurachn]

Hey Mallard,
Great to see an interest in this ver underrepresented battle!
I actually started looking into having a go at making one myself, but never got much further than the planning stage.

I did manage to come up with what I think is an accurate map of the battle field as it stood during the various stages of the battle (based on topographical maps, and aerial photos).
Comparing this to your map I can see there are a few fairly significant divergences from the actual terrain, e.g your map is a lot hillier than the actual site, especially west of the Nam Youn, which is very flat. Some of your firebases are a bit off also, especially the key Dominique's and Eliane's.
I was also a bit surprised to see some Sherman's and AMX APC's! I'm pretty sure the only armor they had were those few Chaffee's.

I can see that you wanted to include the whole scene, but it might have been better to not include Gabrielle and Isabelle, as they are actually quite far away from the main areas near the airfield. Removing those would have let you keep the area proportional, without the map getting crazy huge. In any case, these (along with Beatrice) were almost separate battles in their own right.

Of course as you said, ideally this battle really needs to be split into several parts to cover the various major actions.
If you ever feel up for having a stab at that, I would be happy to share my maps and research notes.
-G

[Palle]

I know quite a bit of DBP and my 5 Eurocent is that it is too large and complex a battle to be realistically covered in SPMBT. How do you portray "The Rats of Myon Than"? The extreme morale and dedication of Les Paras and La Legion? The 40 man assault on Elaine that threw out a battalion of Viets? The sheer scale of the battle? Would you allow the French to garrision DBP with only Legionnaires and Paras instead of mixing Viets and N. Africans in? ETC.
I am sorry, but I think it cannot be done at this scale.

[phil74501]

I've been playing your DBP scenario. I've made it to turn 10. I've spent all of that time trying to get troops into positions. Which is kinda boring. I have almost all of my troops on the ground, and still have large parts of my entrenched areas uncovered. The troops seem to land in about 3 areas only. So I end up moving them long distances, by foot obviously. I've already lost 4 or 5 VP hexes because my troops started too far away from them.

I'm not an expert on that battle. I do remember reading about it at least once. Seems to me like it would've made for a faster played scenario if it had started at least 10 turns later than it did. In other words, with the French troops already in place.

[FASTBOAT TOUGH]

I would recommend book #1 from Post #15 if this project is still being worked on. I got mine from the ALBERIS site for around $15.00 in very good condition. I bring this up because I was checking to see if their was any info on the type of 105mm arty tubes that were being used then. The Appendix is very thorough to include complete Order of Battles for both armies. By example from the FOB:
"I Battery, North Viet-Nam AAA Group (FTA-NVN)
1 section of 2 quad-.50 mounts Dominque 4
1 section of 2 quad-.50 mounts Huguette 1"

I used the above example as I believe it was brought in the thread about these units. They are the only ones listed in the FOB. This might be worth your while as of course the story, along with drawings and pictures show the progression of the battle which might be useful on the scenario approach you take to refine what you have now. The Falklands scenario might be useful here(?).

Regards,
Pat

[shahadi]

I came across what appears at first glance an exciting reference source covering DienBien Phu and the IndoChina War in general. Interestingly, it is a Wild Bill site using TOAW game. He has well documented OOBs for both sides in the conflict and a TOAW scenario map that I think could be translated into winSPMBT without much difficulty.

links: Dien Bien Phu – A Fatal Gamble by Wild Bill

The TOAW scenario link: DIEN BIEN PHU 1954 v1.1b by Karim Marc HASANIC

[FASTBOAT TOUGH]

Grant,
If you're still working on the Dien Bien Phu Campaign, I really think after about the 30yr. hiatus since you indicated you read Bernard Fall's book you should do so again, I just finished it. He covers all aspects of the battle from the initial airdrop and ensuing three days it took to neutralize the enemy, the siege and raid period to a daily breakdown of the final 54 days Gen. Giap decided and was ready to launch his offensive. He covers CONDOR and ALBATROSS, also the what ifs of VOLTURE being implemented, the 16 tank option and the need for BEATRICE.
I strongly feel this would allow you too "scale down" the battle somewhat as you know most of the "French troops" fought from fixed positions and allow the counter attacking French troops to enter the map at an appropriate time based on the archives. Also it has many battle maps included.
As the book points out we would revisit (U.S. Civilians flew resupply missions during the battle.) Dien Bien Phu and bomb it successful in 1965. They found the dead from both sides finally got a grave marker around where the I believe it said, the HUGENUTTE positions were...a new airstrip that criss crossed to original one. I believe the GOOGLE 3D map I posted here earlier shows it.
Unless you've read the book or really looked into the history, it would be hard to fully understand and appreciate not only what all the troops endured, but also the ramifications to East/West relations and also the long term policies adapted by the U.S., China and Russia in S.E. Asia that would culminate with the Vietnam War and for a few years after that war ended.
There are examples of courage and what men will sacrifice for the sake of others that'll make a grown man cry. So I end with...
La main de Dieu honore vraiment tous qui s'est sacificed pour le bien de leur collègue homme.

Not what I intended to work on this morning, but I feel this project is important for everything this battle represents to all that were involved. Grant "march on" and "don't give up the boat!", you won't see me say ship if I can help it!?!

Regards,
Pat

[FASTBOAT TOUGH]

Well I got myself pretty caught up in this well intentioned project the scale of which would've been enormous throughout the spectrum in man-hours, planning etc. etc. I reread all the posts to make sure this is new information and it is. So prior to my op, I was researching an unrelated issue when I came across the below items FYI. It was released in 2009 and I see updated to Win 8. And it got favorable reviews (PC Game, Arm Chair General etc.) and might full fill the needs of those with an interest in this battle and the operations associated with it prior to and during the siege. A Vietnamese company would release their own version of the game in Dec 2011 called "7554" sort of a "Call to Duty" styled platform.
On 7554...
http://www.kotaku.com.au/2011/12/vie...-call-of-duty/
http://www.bbc.com/news/business-18119526

Dien Bien Phu...
http://www.wargamer.com/article/2741...-dien-bien-phu
http://www.hpssims.com/Pages/Product...Phu/DBPhu.html

About my "signature" I've not found one that seemed to fit my "temperament" over the years until I heard this one. Though I could never aspire to accomplish what he did, I've tried to apply and aspire to the thought behind his words in my life.

Regards,
Pat