Miniblood nations - rates

[Valerius]

Originally Posted by Slobby

I slightly disagree with your post sdr analysis. I'm thinking more to start it up with as many B2s & B1s as soon as possible and get it going. Then get blood boosters (con4) and pass them to B1s to make them B2s so as to free up some of the B2s for summons, etc. and continue to scale upward. Perhaps an inefficient approach but I don't see much else. Even waiting for turn 50 with ~7B2 drotts, isn't ideal. And while I agree vamp lords would be a nice add on that's really pushing mid/late game with respect to research (blood7) when there are other tasty battle spells that could be researched up the alt/evo/ench trees.

Definately not counting either out, but imo the blood econ should already be pumping at a relatively good pace by that point (even if only 25 slaves/turn that's 1 booster/turn which will lead to more slaves, etc.), and in all likelihood I won't be putting blood on the the pretender so I'll need to empower one drott to B4.

I agree with your approach - the turn 50 example was just a point of reference of what you might have ramped up to as you enter the late game. I would definitely start early, as you have planned. As each B2 Vanadrott is recruited put them right to work blood hunting. And even if you don't have an immediate need for the blood slaves there's something to be said for stockpiling them since you can't sharply ramp up your yield the way the major blood powers can. The only thing I'm not sure about is using B1 Vanjarls without a booster to blood hunt. Of course you'll want some around anyway for thugging and when not otherwise occupied there's no reason not to have them blood hunting (since they're almost equally bad researchers ) but I don't think I'd recruit them expressly for blood hunting (unless of course I had a booster ready for them).

I also agree with your research priority. When playing Van I wouldn't focus that much on blood until I had key spells like rain of stones and fog warriors researched. Vampire lords and high level blood magic are long term goals. For me, blood is key for Van's late game but early/mid game I'm not relying on it the way I would when playing Aby.

Originally Posted by Slobby

Curious though on your 75-100 blood slave eco, what exactly were you making/summoning? Item wise Vans choices are meh. Was it simply to field mass amounts of storm demons?

Well, I really like the synergy between being able to push your dominion with blood sacrifice and using immortal units. At 66 slaves each, vampire lords can use of a lot of that income. Then blood sacrificing from multiple forts using jade knives could easily use up another 15-20 slaves. If I've researched blood 9 I'll also make use of the various spells that summon a batch of demons. If I think there's some still available I'll also go for the unique blood summons. And of course if you're regularly using spells like life for a life that adds up as well.

Actually, earlier in the game a lot of my blood income went into preparing for a late game blood economy. Invariably I'd empower an N mage so I could forge jade knives. I'd probably continue empowering that mage so he could forge armor of twisting thorns and that would open up the other blood boosters (as well as B/N spells if you want to use some of those).

I didn't make much use of the low level blood summons since Van has a good troop lineup (more so MA than EA). If I do use low level summons I aim for something that summons several units at once. While the idea of an upkeep free lightning bolt caster for 4 slaves is appealing, I never made much use of storm demons when they had to be summoned one at a time. I think because blood hunting is already costly and then I have to have a B2 Vanadrott or a Vanjarl with a booster do the summoning. Especially given the demands on those units in CBM 1.8, summoning demons one at a time doesn't seem worth it.

[Slobby]

Originally Posted by Executor

1. Blood hunters would get rather vulnerable in open provinces, the fact remains you pull more gold from forts due to administration so open provinces are generally a better option to blood hunt, and I for one would target those provinces first for assassinations, remote spells and attacks. So you'd need forts or something in blood hunting provinces to protect your investment. We all know that it sometimes takes only one turn of war to halt or cripple a blood economy.

Van has crappy forts so I wouldn't be too concerned with gold loss. Open provinces or forts can be protected by domes of solid air. You can also further ensure their safe keeping by giving them crystal hearts.

Originally Posted by Executor

Also, rather than forging items, I'd much prefer empowering to B2 myself, after all it's only a 5 slave difference without the hammers.

I'd rather have items as the items can be transferred whereas an empowerment cannot.

Originally Posted by Executor

I of course see no way around this since I think Vanheim is screwed regarding blood hunting personally.

maybe

[Slobby]

Originally Posted by Valerius

Well, I really like the synergy between being able to push your dominion with blood sacrifice and using immortal units. At 66 slaves each, vampire lords can use of a lot of that income. Then blood sacrificing from multiple forts using jade knives could easily use up another 15-20 slaves. If I've researched blood 9 I'll also make use of the various spells that summon a batch of demons. If I think there's some still available I'll also go for the unique blood summons. And of course if you're regularly using spells like life for a life that adds up as well.

Actually, earlier in the game a lot of my blood income went into preparing for a late game blood economy. Invariably I'd empower an N mage so I could forge jade knives. I'd probably continue empowering that mage so he could forge armor of twisting thorns and that would open up the other blood boosters (as well as B/N spells if you want to use some of those).

I didn't make much use of the low level blood summons since Van has a good troop lineup (more so MA than EA). If I do use low level summons I aim for something that summons several units at once. While the idea of an upkeep free lightning bolt caster for 4 slaves is appealing, I never made much use of storm demons when they had to be summoned one at a time. I think because blood hunting is already costly and then I have to have a B2 Vanadrott or a Vanjarl with a booster do the summoning. Especially given the demands on those units in CBM 1.8, summoning demons one at a time doesn't seem worth it.

Agreed, but with jade knives now unique I don't know how worthwhile blood saccing is.

Actually I find the hearts of life to be quite useful and am now planning on spamming the hell outta them for thugging/casting purposes. Without them thugging options for Van, eh not so much.

And speaking of empowering. A fun trick might be to put W and E on the pretender to summon Grendelkin. Empower the Grendelkin in blood, give maybe a blood thorn and definately hydra armor and ring of regen then script blood vengence/reinvigorate/attack. Will still need to test that one but on paper looks good...

All in all in terms of summons, there really is nothing there for Van until Blood 7 & 9, however with the scaling upward blood eco through forging boosters, forging hearts, empowering, and combat casting, I'm now of the opinion that there are definate uses of slaves in the early and especially the mid game of Van and can't really foresee too much stock piling going on.

All the more reason for the blood eco, inefficient as it is, to start sooner than later .

[Slobby]

Originally Posted by Executor

Also, rather than forging items, I'd much prefer empowering to B2 myself, after all it's only a 5 slave difference without the hammers.

After running some expansion tests coupled with out of the gate blood hunting I now agree that empowering from the start is the way to go to get the economy rolling for van. Thanks!

[Valerius]

Originally Posted by Slobby

Agreed, but with jade knives now unique I don't know how worthwhile blood saccing is.

I wonder about that myself, especially since Van only has H2s. Should still work for protecting your own dominion but I don't know that you'll be able to generate much of a dominion push.

Originally Posted by Slobby

Actually I find the hearts of life to be quite useful and am now planning on spamming the hell outta them for thugging/casting purposes. Without them thugging options for Van, eh not so much.

That's an interesting idea! I've never actually used hearts of life, I think because I hated the idea of giving up a misc slot on my thugs. And the idea of equipping communion slaves with them (maybe combined with a light earth bless and summon earthpower?) seems very interesting.

Originally Posted by Slobby

And speaking of empowering. A fun trick might be to put W and E on the pretender to summon Grendelkin. Empower the Grendelkin in blood, give maybe a blood thorn and definately hydra armor and ring of regen then script blood vengence/reinvigorate/attack. Will still need to test that one but on paper looks good...

Funny you should mention that. At one point I considered empowering bane lords in B and running a reverse communion. Of course I wanted to run more than just B buffs through the communion and fatigue built up quickly. In the end I decided it wasn't worthwhile. But grendelkin are of course much tougher than bane lords and could be worth the trouble. Fun idea, anyway.

Originally Posted by Slobby

All in all in terms of summons, there really is nothing there for Van until Blood 7 & 9, however with the scaling upward blood eco through forging boosters, forging hearts, empowering, and combat casting, I'm now of the opinion that there are definate uses of slaves in the early and especially the mid game of Van and can't really foresee too much stock piling going on.

All the more reason for the blood eco, inefficient as it is, to start sooner than later .

I agree with Executor that Van is screwed with regard to blood hunting but this has been an interesting conversation and I have to admit it makes me want to play Van despite the hits they've taken. I'll be curious to hear if you manage develop a strong blood economy despite having to spend all that effort to empower/forge boosters in order to get effective blood hunters.

[Slobby]

Originally Posted by Valerius

I agree with Executor that Van is screwed with regard to blood hunting but this has been an interesting conversation and I have to admit it makes me want to play Van despite the hits they've taken. I'll be curious to hear if you manage develop a strong blood economy despite having to spend all that effort to empower/forge boosters in order to get effective blood hunters.

Aye, it's really not too hard. I'm part way through making a guide for EA Van so hopefully I can demonstrate how they can be awesome sauce.