Byzantine Pythium - hype/brainstorming thread

[rdonj]

Originally Posted by BigDaddy

They already have 2 commanders that aren't mages that are plenty good to hire. The Serpent Catphract (maybe the assassin should be riding a powerful serpent that continues to fight to the death after its rider dies! You lose the unit but almost always win the fight). The Emerald Lord and the Serpent Lord are awesome units. They are quite possibly THE best mounted and infantry human commanders* in the game. They both have mad stats and the Emerald Lord's are silly high. With equipment he's 15(base 15)/17(base 14!) att/def. He has 15hp, 13str, and 17 protection. That's freakin outrageous.

You know what else is outrageous? The emerald lord's encumbrance. If he has to fight for more than 3 rounds in melee, he is begging to be killed due to crits. You can't use this guy as a thug without giving him gear to try to compensate for the insane encumbrance. And, of course, you have to give up hiring a mage to hire this guy who is functionally no better than a normal emerald guard (unkitted).


Burnsaber - Sounds good I'm not sure that theurgs need to cost more if you're making them weaker, but I'm pretty ambivalent on that issue. So they'll keep battle vestals as their sacred?

[Burnsaber]

Originally Posted by rdonj

Burnsaber - Sounds good I'm not sure that theurgs need to cost more if you're making them weaker, but I'm pretty ambivalent on that issue.

Well, my new randoms give them good access to "Astral Fires", so they'll be better battlemages than in vanilla. Hence, appropiate costing.

Originally Posted by rdonj

So they'll keep battle vestals as their sacred?

Yeah. They're not really "byzantine" but are a cool unit (gameplay-wise) and I really like the conflict between getting a bless for a cap-only light infantry sacred and angel SC's. They've been overshadowed by Hydras since PPP, perhaps now they can see some use.

[rdonj]

Oh, looking at them you actually did make them MUCH better. Yeah, the price hike is definitely warranted.

I'm actually not sure how much different a bless would be for angel SCs and battle vestals. Pythium has solid units to absorb missile fire, and one of the best blesses for battle vestals would be w9... which certainly angels wouldn't mind either. Maybe add on an e4+ bless for the angels and theurgs. Still, I don't think that's a problem, I for one certainly haven't seen battle vestals being used much in the past.

[Squirrelloid]

If you want to see battle vestals used, they have to not be cap only. They're too weak as a unit to make blessing them worthwhile when you can only hire from one fort each turn. Like flagellants, this is a sacred that would need to be used in truly massive numbers to make a blessing sensible. I, for one, will gladly use whatever the principes equivalent is instead of BVs to save the pretender design points with the way things are now.

Basically, its not that hydrae kept BVs from being used, its that they're a cheap disposable sacred which isn't capable of being hired in numbers suitable for 'cheap and disposable' to be an advantage.

[rdonj]

You wouldn't even go with a blessing aimed at angels or theurgs and use them as a side unit if the blessing happens to be useful? They're cheap and not very resource-intensive, so it's not too hard to justify buying them.

[Squirrelloid]

Re: proposed mage changes

I dunno, that'll make Pythium's mages quite weak for MA. S2X2H2 as recruit anywhere is decent, but then there's no capital-only mage for heavier mage power, and that's a pretty weak mage as your top tier mage.

And of course, moving arch-theurges to being multiheroes means you're dependent on Lk scales, may or may not get any year 1, 2, or even 3 or later, and need to hope you only get arch-theurges. And of course, old age is even more annoying because if you *do* lose one to disease you can't replace him.

[Squirrelloid]

Originally Posted by rdonj

You wouldn't even go with a blessing aimed at angels or theurgs and use them as a side unit if the blessing happens to be useful? They're cheap and not very resource-intensive, so it's not too hard to justify buying them.

yeah, but we're looking at an E4+N4+ blessing, which isn't useful for BVs at all.

[BigDaddy]

Originally Posted by rdonj

You know what else is outrageous? The emerald lord's encumbrance. If he has to fight for more than 3 rounds in melee, he is begging to be killed due to crits. You can't use this guy as a thug without giving him gear to try to compensate for the insane encumbrance. And, of course, you have to give up hiring a mage to hire this guy who is functionally no better than a normal emerald guard (unkitted).


Burnsaber - Sounds good I'm not sure that theurgs need to cost more if you're making them weaker, but I'm pretty ambivalent on that issue. So they'll keep battle vestals as their sacred?

You're right, they have a weakness, OMG... If you can't spare the nature gems, go with serpent lord. At least he doesn't have trouble hit and defending.

Battle Vestals are a joke stategically. They're fine thematically good, although I don't see why they aren't recruitable everywhere, except that Pythium really doesn't need a 'bless strategy...' other than a nice one for mages.

[rdonj]

*Yes, the lizard king does rock, but he needs equipment, and, while size 2, he isn't actually human.

I took this to be referring to something that is not an emerald lord, and took your overall statement to imply that he could be used without gear. What I was saying, was that there was no way emerald lords could be used without gear. If we are in agreement that they need gear to be useful, then I have no problem with what you said.

[Burnsaber]

Originally Posted by Squirrelloid

I dunno, that'll make Pythium's mages quite weak for MA. S2X2H2 as recruit anywhere is decent, but then there's no capital-only mage for heavier mage power, and that's a pretty weak mage as your top tier mage.

Well, I sort of managed to leave out one very important note. There will be a new angel summon for Pythium only, that will summon up named Archangles with more diverse paths (Raphael "Healing of God" with S/N, Gabriel with high S, Uriel with intense fire and so forth). Sort of like "Summon Spenta" for Caelum, except perfactly castable by nationals.

I was also thinking of "twidling" with the angel summons. It's pretty stupid that they all use astral pearls. This particularly quarantiees that they players are only going to use the strongest one. This will affect Marignon too, but IIRC they could use the small boost that this will provide. Harbringer could easily be a A/S summon and Angelic Host be an F/S summon. (Also, it would make sense for Marignon to be better at summoning Fiery smiting archangels than the more "artistic" harbringers, since they have that "heavenly wrath/ inquisition" thing going on)

Originally Posted by Squirrelloid

And of course, moving arch-theurges to being multiheroes means you're dependent on Lk scales, may or may not get any year 1, 2, or even 3 or later, and need to hope you only get arch-theurges. And of course, old age is even more annoying because if you *do* lose one to disease you can't replace him.

Well, the new pythium won't be so desperate for arch-theurgs as the old one (besides, toning down the power is one of the design principles). There won't be any need to desperately make them happen. The only problem I could see with them having old age is if you get S3 F3 with highly reduced lifespan and very heavy old age, but I could just make them not old (they are healthy with the aid of the holy spirit or something).

Originally Posted by Squirrelloid

If you want to see battle vestals used, they have to not be cap only. They're too weak as a unit to make blessing them worthwhile when you can only hire from one fort each turn. Like flagellants, this is a sacred that would need to be used in truly massive numbers to make a blessing sensible. I, for one, will gladly use whatever the principes equivalent is instead of BVs to save the pretender design points with the way things are now.

Basically, its not that hydrae kept BVs from being used, its that they're a cheap disposable sacred which isn't capable of being hired in numbers suitable for 'cheap and disposable' to be an advantage.

Hmm. True. I'll probably make them non-cap, since I already have two units that will be cap-only. Three would be just stupid.