Nations under CBM 1.6

[Mardagg]

Originally Posted by Squirrelloid

Agartha:
...
First of all, EA Rlyeh isn't even *that* strong, and EA Agartha still has no chance against them. Good MR doesn't help when your troops have the military power of tissue paper. Oh yeah, and invading Rlyeh with their guaranteed C3 dominion... let me know how that turns out for you. I'd take indie tritons over agarthan troops. No, not equal cash, equal numbers.

ok,my friend.I must say that i already hate your arrogance at this point,after only reading half a dozen posts from you.
I just won an MP war with Agartha vs an EA Rlyeh ,that did know what he was doing.
He had no chance,bc my Pale infantry did a good job resisting quite a lot of mind blasts,while my Earth elementals via barathus pact where stomping his Lobos.He then proceeded to target my oracles in further battles,which had starting MR of 18,some did cast iron will for MR 22 before being targeted...in that fight he did not manage to kill a single of my Orcale mages,bc you know,they got pretty good HP,too.
My teleporting Risen oracle did a good job there,too,since,you know,he is amphibous.I took a start dom of 10 so actually wasnt a big problem to face his cold 3,since EA Ryleh always has dom problems.
I say EA Agartha is the top nation for battling EA Squids.
And,you know,that was just an example by me.
You didnt adress any of my other points.


Did YOU ever play EA Agartha?

[Mardagg]

Originally Posted by Squirrelloid

LA Ulm is by no means strong. They are very weak early, and their troops are bad and overpriced. Lasting long enough to summon a vampire count is hard, much less lasting long enough to do anything with said vampire count. And their blood access is bad and expensive for their performance as blood hunters - you don't get the good blood summons, they're already all gone because you're competing with LA Abysia, LA Mictlan, etc... And have we mentioned the bad research? - you get to midgame after everyone else even in the research-poor LA, as a nation whose early game sucks. You think Marveni has a hard time surviving the early game? At least Marveni gets to start with a good mage and troops that don't fatigue out at the drop of a hat.

.

Thats why you take an awake Blood Fountain for example.
Preferbly B4D3N2.
Helps with early research along with magic scale 1.
Lets you summon the first count before end of year 1.
Forges the first Thistle mace so that your N random fortune tellers can cast harupsex early on.
You ever heard of specific pretender builds targetting nation weaknesses?
With cbm,the blood fountain is a decent choice.
Talking about bad research...LA ULm is the perfect fit for Lightless Lanterns.
Your Fire random black priests with forge bonus dont know what to do with the fire gems anyways.
Have you even read the other points me and the other posters mentionend,that make LA Ulm strong?

Did YOU ever play LA Ulm?

[Sombre]

No, EA Oceania is the top nation for battling EA squids.

[Mardagg]

Thats debatable.

Oceania has to defend vs the squids,e.g. vs teleporting sc mind lords.
Agartha probably has a lot of "safe" land terrain until the squids can amass amulets of the fish.So,with Ag you will wage the war almost exclusivle in enemy terrain.
Also I consider the risen oracle the perfect choice for EA Agartha as already mentioned above,bc u can take T3S3H3L3 easily with Ag.
That alone makes EA Agartha a v strong force early on in the water.
U still need luck for the starting position though.
So probably Oceania is a tad better vs the squids .
But my point is: EA Agartha is strong in the water and decent on land= pretty good nation on most maps especially when there is only 1 water nation.

[Squirrelloid]

Originally Posted by Mardagg

ok,my friend.I must say that i already hate your arrogance at this point,after only reading half a dozen posts from you.
I just won an MP war with Agartha vs an EA Rlyeh ,that did know what he was doing.
He had no chance,bc my Pale infantry did a good job resisting quite a lot of mind blasts,while my Earth elementals via barathus pact where stomping his Lobos.He then proceeded to target my oracles in further battles,which had starting MR of 18,some did cast iron will for MR 22 before being targeted...in that fight he did not manage to kill a single of my Orcale mages,bc you know,they got pretty good HP,too.
My teleporting Risen oracle did a good job there,too,since,you know,he is amphibous.I took a start dom of 10 so actually wasnt a big problem to face his cold 3,since EA Ryleh always has dom problems.
I say EA Agartha is the top nation for battling EA Squids.
And,you know,that was just an example by me.
You didnt adress any of my other points.

Did YOU ever play EA Agartha?

And I hate your false familiarity and your assumption that I haven't tried these nations. If you make ridiculous claims, expect not to be taken seriously.

Now, clearly EA Rlyeh didn't know what he was doing since he brought lobo guards and mindblasters to a fist fight. I'd take indie tritons over both of those for that fight. Or Slave Trolls, who should mop the floor with both your earth elementals and your troops. Heck, as EA Rlyeh I'd be tempted to take Slave Trolls in general since they give you a way to project power onto land early.

Out of curiosity, what did his mages cast?

And EA Rlyeh often has dom 9-10 on a kraken, which in their case isn't a terrible idea since CBM 1.6 removed the need to have air on its pretender. A dom 10 kraken could have wiped your army *by itself*. Dom 10 similarly tends to imply no problems with dominion.

I have played EA Agartha, repeatedly, in SP, and its the only nation where the AI has given me a hard time. Even such crappy nations as Eriu and Machaka outperform them trivially against the AI. I have not had the opportunity to play them in MP, mostly because while I like playing underdogs they simply are not worth the pain.

As to your other 'points' - (1) There are other sea nations, both of whom are better suited to smashing you than Rlyeh is. EA Oceania is the dominant EA sea nation, and they run you over better than either Rlyeh or Atlantis. (2) Yes, Umbrals are good. They're the only thing Agartha has going for it. And standard UD counters apply. I was one of the people arguing for Umbrals to be returned to Conj 5 (from the Conj 7 they were in CBM 1.5) so that EA Agartha wasn't simply DOA.

Originally Posted by Mardagg

Thats why you take an awake Blood Fountain for example.
Preferbly B4D3N2.
Helps with early research along with magic scale 1.
Lets you summon the first count before end of year 1.
Forges the first Thistle mace so that your N random fortune tellers can cast harupsex early on.

...

What do you do, blood hunt your capital?

That's an awful blood fountain build. Blood fountains need A2 or S3 for mobility reasons if its not being used merely as a bless chassis.

Its also a bad pretender build for LA Ulm longterm because you want S4+ (with a sufficiency of slots) so you can forge the astral rings. You want E so you have S+E to forge coins. And of course you need D3B3 so you can summon vamp counts at all. And as you correctly identified, N is useful to you. Sufficient F to make fire boosters isn't a terrible idea either, and also opens up fire arrows (which since your crossbows are your best troop option, is a really good idea).

Oh yeah, and you want that awake research boost so your research doesn't suck year 1.

You'd also like plausibly decent scales, since you need resources, cash for infrastructure/mages (who are winning no efficiency awards), and so on. Mg1 might help, but Dr2 would at least give you points *and* do something about your perenially weak MR. Of course, your research is *already* bad.

And given how weak Ulm is early, you wouldn't mind some SC help from your pretender. Of course, you aren't going to get that, D3B3, and satisfy your magic diversity needs all at the same time.

You ever heard of specific pretender builds targetting nation weaknesses?

Sure. Have you ever heard of an excess of weaknesses? Its exactly what I indicted Eriu for - like Eriu, LA Ulm needs too many things out of its pretender to reasonably get it all.

With cbm,the blood fountain is a decent choice.
Talking about bad research...LA ULm is the perfect fit for Lightless Lanterns.
Your Fire random black priests with forge bonus dont know what to do with the fire gems anyways.

I dunno, forge flaming skulls so they can Phoenix Power into Flaming Arrows sounds pretty good. Not that you live that long.

Of course, lightless lanterns require that you somehow miraculously made it to Constr 6. Since you probably die early year 2, I am not enthused. Further, weren't we researching iron storm to survive into the midgame?

Have you even read the other points me and the other posters mentionend,that make LA Ulm strong?

Did YOU ever play LA Ulm?

I read 'they have blood and death, how can they possibly be bad'. Note that neither of these are especially good as early game paths. And they're competing against the best blood nations in the game (Mictlan, Abysia) for the unique blood summons, a competition they lose by lightyards. They're competing against everyone else for the Chalice or GoH, which they also lose because their research sucks. So despite having D+B access they don't actually get to use the good B stuff and can't heal their tarts making tart-farming inefficient. (Also, they have no good tart casters - so they have to spend yet more gems on casters who can plausibly tart summon). If they were an MA nation, they might be a plausible blood power. In LA they're just another might-have-been that never makes it.

Jarkko's 'conventional troops' comment is hilarious, because their conventional troops just die against most opponents. Heck, they have trouble expanding vs. typical LA indies with a lot of their troop line-up. And that's before you even consider the pitifully weak MR. And as if your troops being individually worse than most of the opposition you'll face wasn't bad enough, you're also perpetually outnumbered because you pay so much in resources for the privilege of hiring crappy troops. LA Ulm is one of the easiest nations to rush in the game, bar none. I'd class them as easier to rush than Machaka. (If they do survive, their longterm prospects are better... but they always get rushed).

I have played LA Ulm. It was a disappointing experience. Crossbows aren't very good when your line troops just disintegrate after 2-3 rounds of melee, and did almost no damage while there.

Would you like Wraithlord to also wax poetic about the utter suckitude of these nations, since he agreed with most of my list?

[Squirrelloid]

Originally Posted by Mardagg

Thats debatable.

I consider the risen oracle the perfect choice for EA Agartha as already mentioned above,bc u can take T3S3H3L3 easily with Ag.

T3 with gold-hungry Agartha? I think you just lost any authority in this discussion.

[Mardagg]

Originally Posted by Squirrelloid

T3 with gold-hungry Agartha? I think you just lost any authority in this discussion.

lol.u are just an idiot.
U are telling everyone agarthian troops are soo bad,why do you want the gold to produce them?
I mainly need gold for the oracles,which are cap only,and earth readers which are cheap.The rest is chaff,much needed,but just cannonfodder.10g11r 2 map move amphibian chaff.
Now,tell me,why do i need O3 here?
I got the idea from someone who won a big MP game here on the forum with EA Agartha,He took the line T3S2H3L3M1,death -1 AFAIK.
I read his AAr several months ago and tried that a lot in SP.
U take awake super Sc immortal pretender Risen oracle with something like S4E4D4 and v high dom.I took T3S2H3L3G0M1 though,dont like death scale.
I want gems for my v good national summons,not only Umbrals,but also Magma childs(to be backed by E4 or E5 mages) and Earth Elementals( v good for water fights).
How do i get many gems?
By taking turmoil+luck+magic combo.
Also you get some luck events most of the time to compensate for lack of gold at the start.
Try it before judging.

I stomb the AI in no time there,simply alone bc my Pretender stomps him.He is nearly unstoppable at around turn 5 already.
Mind you,thats dom2 style,where it was a lot more common to see strong starting pretenders.
I feel home there since i am a Dom2 vet,probably having a lot more MP victories under my belt there than you in DOm3.

[Mardagg]

[quote=Squirrelloid;724703

And I hate your false familiarity and your assumption that I haven't tried these nations. If you make ridiculous claims, expect not to be taken seriously.

Now, clearly EA Rlyeh didn't know what he was doing since he brought lobo guards and mindblasters to a fist fight. I'd take indie tritons over both of those for that fight. Or Slave Trolls, who should mop the floor with both your earth elementals and your troops. Heck, as EA Rlyeh I'd be tempted to take Slave Trolls in general since they give you a way to project power onto land early.

Out of curiosity, what did his mages cast?

And EA Rlyeh often has dom 9-10 on a kraken, which in their case isn't a terrible idea since CBM 1.6 removed the need to have air on its pretender. A dom 10 kraken could have wiped your army *by itself*. Dom 10 similarly tends to imply no problems with dominion.

I have played EA Agartha, repeatedly, in SP, and its the only nation where the AI has given me a hard time. Even such crappy nations as Eriu and Machaka outperform them trivially against the AI. I have not had the opportunity to play them in MP, mostly because while I like playing underdogs they simply are not worth the pain.

As to your other 'points' - (1) There are other sea nations, both of whom are better suited to smashing you than Rlyeh is. EA Oceania is the dominant EA sea nation, and they run you over better than either Rlyeh or Atlantis. (2) Yes, Umbrals are good. They're the only thing Agartha has going for it. And standard UD counters apply. I was one of the people arguing for Umbrals to be returned to Conj 5 (from the Conj 7 they were in CBM 1.5) so that EA Agartha wasn't simply DOA.


[/QUOTE]

I was asking seriously if you do have any MP experience with these nations,which you havent
You know what,i suck with Sauromatia.
I still wont ever claim that they are bad,just bc their playing concept doesnt get into my mind in SP games.
He did have lots of tritons and troopers mixed in.
I was better in research,so i had advantage at start.That changed later on though and still didnt do anything.
Lol @ DOm 10 Kraken wiping me out.
I got a dozen smiters and moreso of frozenheart spammers,thats how i killed his pretender in the end anyways.Alteration synergized v well with my pretender build.
I agree though,that his pretender build(imprisoned void Lurker S8 and some other paths+low dom) was suboptimal.

To your points regarding my other points:

(1)as i already stated to Sombre,Oceania being better suited vs the Squids is debatable .Agartha,having lots of provinces on land normally,is practically immune to any serious counter attacks by the squids until quite some time.Whereas oceania is vulnerable to e.g. teleporting Mind lords quite early.
What i am saying is,basically a land nations with easy access to water has big advantage in a battle vs a water nation with vv tough access to land,after all,all mind blasters are aquatic,no?
In other words,u cant lose the war,just stalemate as worst case.

(2) at least we agree on Umbrals.
What about the magma childs and earth elementals?

[FAJ]

I have to agree with Squirrillord, about LA Ulm at least. Trying to design a pretender for them is like having a leaky roof with 10 holes and only having 3 buckets to catch it all.

I don't so much agree about the fountain being a bad choice. You mention the need for S4 for rings, but I think it is a bigger burden to get S4 on the pretender than it is to just empower an S2 Fortune teller, then give her a coin and a cap. They have an abundance of S2, S1E1 and E2 mages, so coins and caps shouldn't be a problem.

Also, considering the high resource to gold ratio for Ulm troops, you aren’t very gold hungry in the first couple turns. Blood hunting your capital to summon a Vampire on turn 3 isn't impossible/crippling in CBM. Maybe not super effective, but hunting your capital is not the end of the world.

@Mardagg

Keep in mind, the argument here is that these nations mentioned are weaker than others, not that they are garbage outright. Proving that some negatives are possible to overcome, or that a nation can compensate for a weakness doesn't prove that a nation isn't weaker than others. In either case, weak or not, providing a specific example of how a very particular build can be effective is evidence enough that the race is AT LEAST constrained in terms of variety.

On a side note, I think that it is ironic the way that post (#27) is started, and then subsequently composed.

[Mardagg]

[quote=Squirrelloid;724703][quote=Mardagg;724690]

Originally Posted by Squirrelloid

...

What do you do, blood hunt your capital?

That's an awful blood fountain build. Blood fountains need A2 or S3 for mobility reasons if its not being used merely as a bless chassis.

Its also a bad pretender build for LA Ulm longterm because you want S4+ (with a sufficiency of slots) so you can forge the astral rings. You want E so you have S+E to forge coins. And of course you need D3B3 so you can summon vamp counts at all. And as you correctly identified, N is useful to you. Sufficient F to make fire boosters isn't a terrible idea either, and also opens up fire arrows (which since your crossbows are your best troop option, is a really good idea).

Oh yeah, and you want that awake research boost so your research doesn't suck year 1.

You'd also like plausibly decent scales, since you need resources, cash for infrastructure/mages (who are winning no efficiency awards), and so on. Mg1 might help, but Dr2 would at least give you points *and* do something about your perenially weak MR. Of course, your research is *already* bad.

And given how weak Ulm is early, you wouldn't mind some SC help from your pretender. Of course, you aren't going to get that, D3B3, and satisfy your magic diversity needs all at the same time.



Sure. Have you ever heard of an excess of weaknesses? Its exactly what I indicted Eriu for - like Eriu, LA Ulm needs too many things out of its pretender to reasonably get it all.

I dunno, forge flaming skulls so they can Phoenix Power into Flaming Arrows sounds pretty good. Not that you live that long.

Of course, lightless lanterns require that you somehow miraculously made it to Constr 6. Since you probably die early year 2, I am not enthused. Further, weren't we researching iron storm to survive into the midgame?

I read 'they have blood and death, how can they possibly be bad'. Note that neither of these are especially good as early game paths. And they're competing against the best blood nations in the game (Mictlan, Abysia) for the unique blood summons, a competition they lose by lightyards. They're competing against everyone else for the Chalice or GoH, which they also lose because their research sucks. So despite having D+B access they don't actually get to use the good B stuff and can't heal their tarts making tart-farming inefficient. (Also, they have no good tart casters - so they have to spend yet more gems on casters who can plausibly tart summon). If they were an MA nation, they might be a plausible blood power. In LA they're just another might-have-been that never makes it.

Jarkko's 'conventional troops' comment is hilarious, because their conventional troops just die against most opponents. Heck, they have trouble expanding vs. typical LA indies with a lot of their troop line-up. And that's before you even consider the pitifully weak MR. And as if your troops being individually worse than most of the opposition you'll face wasn't bad enough, you're also perpetually outnumbered because you pay so much in resources for the privilege of hiring crappy troops. LA Ulm is one of the easiest nations to rush in the game, bar none. I'd class them as easier to rush than Machaka. (If they do survive, their longterm prospects are better... but they always get rushed).

I have played LA Ulm. It was a disappointing experience. Crossbows aren't very good when your line troops just disintegrate after 2-3 rounds of melee, and did almost no damage while there.

Would you like Wraithlord to also wax poetic about the utter suckitude of these nations, since he agreed with most of my list?

For the record,i would like Wraithlord to also wax poetic about these nations.
Maybe thats someone,that actually is more openminded.

I dont need mobility since i indeed blood hunt my capital given the fact that i get plenty of 0 upkeep chaff troops to patrol it and i want my blood counts being summoned as early as possible.
After all,you got a pretty good allrounder as a summonable right from the start there without the need to research anything in blood for quite some time.
Do you see the synergy here?
I dont took S since u can get S3 with your S2B1 mages via random,its v advisable anyways to build a lot of these guys.
acces to crystal coin+starshine cap is easily.I agree though,that that is the weak spot.you may have to empower 1 S2 mage to S3 in order to repeately being able to forge the rings.
My build allows pretty decent scales with DOm 6.
I might go for O3P2G2L-1C3M1.
Luck -1 is ok imo due to fortune tellers.
As i stated,i consider the 0 enc Ghoul guardian which is insanely massable as ULm with Prod scale to be vv strong troops early-midgame.U counter all bless rushed with that and together with Rangers,they are v powerful with decent MR right from the start.+ they make great underwater units when lead by undead commander with Manual of Water breathing,since the enc penalty is ignored.
I repeat,i dont think ULM is weak in early game,just in early research.If you can come up with solutions here,Ulm is great.
How can u say that Ulm is easily rushable,when everyone knows that the ghould guardians counter most rush options?
I assume u never did build these guys.
Put in antimagic and/or tempering the will and they got v good MR,too.
U played it wrong.
Its that easy.