Commander Battles

[Knai]

This just assumes that people will be polite and stay within the rules. A mod would be preferable, mostly for balance purposes, but its niche enough that that's unlikely. I certainly lack the modding skill, not to mention an adequate understanding of balance.

[MaxWilson]

It can't be done with a mod, since #poorleader sets the number of units you can lead and not the max HP of units you lead. For instance, a #poorleader could still violate the rules by leading 10 Niefel giants.

You have to rely on people to play within the rules, but that shouldn't be a problem since violations would be quite obvious.

-Max

[Squirrelloid]

I'm not seeing how, say, EA Ermor could expand with 60hp of units any better than it could expand with just a commander. Six principes are insufficient to expand with.

In practice, a 50hp giant is worth ~250hp of *good* troops, give or take, although with gear and blessing the giant is likely even better.

[Foodstamp]

Originally Posted by MaxWilson

It can't be done with a mod, since #poorleader sets the number of units you can lead and not the max HP of units you lead. For instance, a #poorleader could still violate the rules by leading 10 Niefel giants.

You have to rely on people to play within the rules, but that shouldn't be a problem since violations would be quite obvious.

-Max

Yeah, I meant instead of the 60 HP rule, use a low leadership rule, not that setting a unit to #poorleader would cap the total HP.

[MaxWilson]

Originally Posted by Squirrelloid

I'm not seeing how, say, EA Ermor could expand with 60hp of units any better than it could expand with just a commander. Six principes are insufficient to expand with.

In practice, a 50hp giant is worth ~250hp of *good* troops, give or take, although with gear and blessing the giant is likely even better.

That's not because of the HP, it's because Niefel Giants are sacreds with good stats and have chill auras. Try expanding with 60 HP of Jotun Hirdmans and see how much fun that it. :-/

EA Ermor will probably have to either 1.) rely on elite units and/or sacreds for expansion, or 2.) send multiple commanders. Perhaps both. Honestly I think most non-bless nations would have trouble expanding with just a single commander.

-Max

[MaxWilson]

Originally Posted by Foodstamp

Yeah, I meant instead of the 60 HP rule, use a low leadership rule, not that setting a unit to #poorleader would cap the total HP.

Okay. In retrospect my comment was probably so obvious to modders like you that I should have known you were suggesting an different rule.

-Max

[Squirrelloid]

Originally Posted by MaxWilson

That's not because of the HP, it's because Niefel Giants are sacreds with good stats and have chill auras. Try expanding with 60 HP of Jotun Hirdmans and see how much fun that it. :-/

EA Ermor will probably have to either 1.) rely on elite units and/or sacreds for expansion, or 2.) send multiple commanders. Perhaps both. Honestly I think most non-bless nations would have trouble expanding with just a single commander.

-Max

The niefl jarl doesn't even *need* a bless. The chill aura certainly helps.

The Jotun Jarl would be perfectly useable for this as well, so, you know, your non-capital forts have something to produce.

I'm not even considering normal niefl/jotun troops - there's no point. You don't have a single commander who would let you bring a normal troop to the party and squeeze in under 60hp iirc.

[MaxWilson]

I'm not trying to talk about strategies for commander battles here, I'm addressing your point that 60 HP of giant units is worth 250 HP of regular units for expansion and that therefore human nations are still at a disadvantage. Aside from blessed giant units I don't think that's true. 6 Principes have lower Strength than a giant unit, but they also have 6 times more attacks and probably better defense because of tower shields.

How many unblessed Jotun Jarls does it take to conquer an indy province of 50 heavy infantry? I'm guessing at least 6 but I don't know for sure. That doesn't seem worse than Ermor.

-Max

[Squirrelloid]

Originally Posted by MaxWilson

I'm not trying to talk about strategies for commander battles here, I'm addressing your point that 60 HP of giant units is worth 250 HP of regular units for expansion and that therefore human nations are still at a disadvantage. Aside from blessed giant units I don't think that's true. 6 Principes have lower Strength than a giant unit, but they also have 6 times more attacks and probably better defense because of tower shields.

How many unblessed Jotun Jarls does it take to conquer an indy province of 50 heavy infantry? I'm guessing at least 6 but I don't know for sure. That doesn't seem worse than Ermor.

-Max

We can use Equites of the Sacred Shroud if you prefer so the comparison unit is sacred.

No one is going to use a non-blessed Jotun Jarl. The fact remains that they exist and are blessable. They're also 35hp instead of 50. So 3 of them are ~100 hp. Do you think 10 Equites of the Sacred Shroud will expand as well as 3 Jotun Jarls?

Edit: 10 Equites of the sacred shroud are also 500g, more than 3 Jotun Jarls.

Or we could consider a nation like Marveni, whose sacred is so unexciting as to be useless in small quantities. You'd seriously need 20-30 of them, even with a bless, to expand reasonably.

[Foodstamp]

The Marverni sacreds are a little better than you give them credit. I can usually expand with less than 10 with a good bless.