Scouting/Recon

[RERomine]

Originally Posted by c_of_red

Jeeps, like armored cars, scout cars, etc have crews. I assume that the crew of a scout vehicle has been trained on observations techniques and has practiced those techniques until they are better at them then the average GI.
Sort of like why in the game a crew has to remount it's own vehicle, or why a rifle squad cannot grab the Sagger left laying on the ground after it's crew got mowed down several turns ago.
Scouting is a skill set, an MOS, 19D according to this;
http://usmilitary.about.com/od/enlistedjobs/a/19d.htm

My last unit was 2/12 Cav, so I'm familiar with what they do. The basic question comes down to simply spotting opposing forces. An enemy force moving in traveling, traveling overwatch, bounding overwatch formations, etc., isn't any more likely to be spotted by a scout than by an average joe. Identifying what has been spotted is more in tune with the training, but that item is rendered moot within the game. If you see it, you know what it is.

Training is also more in tune with avoiding being spotted while scouting. In the game, it's up to the code and how the player moves the unit. You might have an argument here that scouts should be more difficult to spot, but leg scouts are already size 0.

And there are a whole host of other aspects of scout training that don't have anything to do with looking for the enemy. An example would be evaluating routes for heavier assets following behind. It wouldn't do well to have an M1A2 come up to a bridge that wasn't able to handle it's weight. Even that aspect is moot in the game. All bridges handle all tanks. In game terms, what is really left that makes a scout different than regular units?

If you want details on what scouts do, at least in the US Army, here is are links to FM 7-92 and FM 17-98:

http://www.globalsecurity.org/milita...001/index.html

http://www.globalsecurity.org/milita...-98/index.html

Nothing classified in these or they wouldn't be on the internet.

[DRG]

Originally Posted by c_of_red

Jeeps, like armored cars, scout cars, etc have crews. I assume that the crew of a scout vehicle has been trained on observations techniques and has practiced those techniques until they are better at them then the average GI.
Sort of like why in the game a crew has to remount it's own vehicle, or why a rifle squad cannot grab the Sagger left laying on the ground after it's crew got mowed down several turns ago.
Scouting is a skill set, an MOS, 19D according to this;
http://usmilitary.about.com/od/enlistedjobs/a/19d.htm

All I can say to you is I know scouts in the game can behave as scouts do in reality spotting the enemy and remaining unseen if handled correctly WITHOUT having to resort to coded "eyeball GSR"

Don

[Imp]

They work perfectly well if used as intended, as said the one benefit they have over a squad is they are harder to detect.
The majority of my scouts normaly survive so long as I do not ask to much of them.
Trying to get all the way to a rear area or take out a tank help a unit in at tricky situation is what gets them killed. Urban warfare & jungles to but they are dangerous locals period.

A point & I may be wrong but scouts generally do have better chance to spot than a squad. Most scout units are in effect a squad the game has split into 2 half squads to aid it in said mission so man for man blah blah.

[Wdll]

From experience scout units and scout vehicles work very well. Usually against my forces, but they do work. Sometimes it feels like they are a bit too good, but that is perhaps not the most accurate way of explaining it. When I have two mech platoons walker over a scout inf unit over say 3 turns, all of them dismount and look around, and none of them detect the scouts, then I don't know how you say it, but I say the scout units work.

[Suhiir]

Originally Posted by DRG

When you get time you can post an example of "a couple guys ", "moving at all cautiously " that are easily spotted" at "the 2,3, 500 the game allows for" if those couple of guys don't do something dumbass like fire their weapons.

I have an example of scouts spotting the majority of the stationary enemy units after they moved towards them and only two units were spotted and fired on. One at 150 yards and one at 50 and had I had arty support I could have beaten the crap out of them and they would have had no clue where the fire was being called from and that's with a high visibility in a height 1 field not a height three tall grass

Don

Sorry, I was not meaning to imply scout (or for that matter any size 0 or 1 unit) was easily or often spotted at longer ranges, just that is does happen.

As for a test an easy one is to do an assault scenario and buy a bunch of AI controlled scout or infantry units. Set your units to fire at very short range (if at all) then just sit there and watch the AI units advance on your positions.

[DRG]

That's becasue the AI does not move at one or two hexes per turn like a human would trying to sneak in. ( thought everyone knew this.....) In the AI's universe the point of scouts is to get a response from the enemy so that artillery ( and other weapons and units )can be applied. If they get in close so much the better and they are coded not to move closer than 1 hex from a KNOWN position but it's apples and oranges comparing the way the AI uses scouts and the way a human would

Don

[Imp]

One problem with your test Suhiir, most of those leg units will get spotted because they are moving as fast as possible across open terrain. Its the movement that gives them away basic animal programing war or otherwise if it moves it could be a threat so we automatically scan that area better to confirm what we thought moved did.
Repeated DRGs point sorry

[Suhiir]

Good point about the movement speed.

However...
How often is a scenario long enough for you to be able to move that slowly?

This is another of those "game" VS "RL" issues that really has no "answer".

[vyrago]

I've been experimenting with scouts a bit and I agree that scout squads can manage to be sneaky but scout vehicles cant.

Thermal sights should make a world of difference, not just add more hexes to sight range. recon is an important part of mobile warfare and a scout unit should be adept at movement to contact, spotting and ID of enemy and disengagement.

im trying to discover the 'safe' speed for vehicles to move without always being detected.

I also think some of sizes need revision.

example: Canadian Forces (with which im familiar).

M113 size 3
LARV Coyote size 5
Leopard C3 size 5

hmmmm. dunno about that.....

I would put a LAV around size 4, but thats just me and im not even sure how much that would help either.

[RERomine]

Originally Posted by Suhiir

Good point about the movement speed.

However...
How often is a scenario long enough for you to be able to move that slowly?

This is another of those "game" VS "RL" issues that really has no "answer".

That's a very good point. One thing that I've noticed is scenarios in WinSPMBT tend to be shorter than WinSPWW2. As such, I use scouts to cover flanks more than anything.

It could just be circumstances since my last seven WinSPMBT campaign battles have all been "meeting engagements". The last one was 16 turns long so averaging 2 hexes per turn on a 100x100 map, my scouts wouldn't even clear the area between deployment zones. My longest scenario has been 22 turns. All of them have been computer generated lengths and I don't change the lengths. I view the times as being set by my higher command and not by "right" to change. That's just my preference.

In WinSPWW2, "meeting engagements" seem to run 25 turns long and often over 30 turns. With that kind of time, I actually can use scouts for recon purposes.

It is possible to shorten distance scouts have to move by giving them a ride out some distance. Two turns riding will save a scout almost ten turns cautiously walking. You just have to be careful where the scout unloads. If it is in the open, the enemy might watch your scout move every step of the way.