A better system for combat

[dogscoff]

I don't see how tech trees complicate matters. I mean look at the combat attack / defence modifiers: They are calculated battle by battle according to a combination of hull ability, racial bonuses, ship experience, fleet experience and researchable components - exactly what we are proposing for initiative - and that works fine.

Sure, it would probably require a major re-write to many parts of the game, but I should think much of it could be copy/ pasted from the code which controls the other combat modifiers.

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SE4 Code:
L GdY $ Fr- C- Sd T!+ Sf-- Tcp-- A% M>M+ MpD! RV Pw Fq+ Nd- Rp+ G-
/SE4 Code
Go to my meagre SEIV pages to generate your own code.

[capnq]

Just to complicate the issue further:

Would the very rare case when there's more than two empires involved in a battle affect how an initiative syatem worked?

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Cap'n Q
My first mod! Hypermaze quadrant
The most merciful thing in the world, I think, is the inability of the
human mind to correlate all of its contents. We live on a placid
island of ignorance in the midst of black seas of infinity, and it was
not meant that we should go far. -- HP Lovecraft, "The Call of Cthulhu"

[Deathstalker]

Just chipping in my 'vision' for a system of combat initative: (highest number goes first, if there is a tie then both ships go at the same time with damage being applied to both ships at the end of their movement phase):

Hard Code Modifications: Add a line to ALL components in components.txt, line goes like this 'Combat initative modifier' (like the 'to hit' % modifier), this number can be both POSITIVE and NEGATIVE. Add a similar line to the CompEnhancement.txt for weapon mounts. This way people can modd the numbers to be what they want, include an ability in the abilities.txt (think that is what it is called, where the system abilities etc is stored) that contains a random number entry, where the user can also modd. Include a start and a finish, positive and negative numbers. (ie, random combat initive number: -10 to 20, or -1 to 5, etc)

The Numbers : (will be using -2 to +6, with a random 0 to 6 added to initative).Remember highest goes first.

Ship Initative:
Escort:6
Frigate:5
Destroyer:4
Light Cruiser:3
Cruiser:2
Battle Cruiser:1
Battle Ship:0
Dreatnought:-1
BaseShip:-2
Carrier:1
Transport Class: 0
Colonizer Class:-1

Engine Bonus:, +1 per engine, with an additional +1 for each engine 'level' (not tech level, but the different engine levels, ie, Ion, Conterra, Photon etc).

Component Bonus: Combat Sensors+1/level to +3, Combat ECM(?) +1/level to +3, Master Computer, +1/level to +3, Solar Sail -1 (big, unwieldy), Solar Collectors(?) -1 (big, unwieldy), Religious Talisman +2, Psychic Sensors +1 lev to +3, Hyper Optics +1/level to +3, Grav Sensors +1/level to +3 etc.

This would be the base of it, with a random 0 to 6 added, highest number goes first.

Example:

2Frigates, with 6 engines each (contra Terr level, +2 bonus), combat sensors I and Master Computers I. Total Initative is 14 + 0 to 6.

vs. 1 Dreadnought: 2 engines (Photon level, +3 bonus), Talisman, Combat ECM I, Hyper Optics I, Master Computer II. Total Initative is 10 plus 0 to 6.


The Dreadnought in this example can still go first, all it has to do is get a random combat initative number result of 5 or 6, and the Frigates 'roll' a result of 0 or 1.


Thoughts????

[This message has been edited by Deathstalker (edited 13 October 2001).]

[This message has been edited by Deathstalker (edited 13 October 2001).]

[Cyrien]

All of this looks great and fine... on the other hand I think the most simple solution is to simply make it so that warp point combat order isn't based on player number position and is just random. Simple, easy, and it gets rid of the problem that people are griping about as being totally unfair for one side over another. Sure initiative etc would be great and all... but at this point I see it as being alot of work that isn't necessary to fix the basic problem.

Major Problem = One side always disadvantaged to another in Warp Point combat.

Major Solution = Make it so that one side is not always disadvantaged to another in Warp Point combat.

Minor Problem = Make it so that NO combat is ever in any combat disadvantaged based on who goes first IE: No one side wipes out another before it can move despite having equal forces.

Minor Solution = Totally rewrite the existing combat system in such a way that initiative either on a fleet basis or a ship by ship basis that is based on a large number of possibilities ranging from ship size and fleet experience to components and scanner differences in a way that no one seems to really agree on cept that it should be different.

Looked at this way I think we should leave the "Minor" problem as I have dubbed it for a sequel and just get the major problem outa the way.

*edit*

Like to add that I have worked on stuff like this and in general when the people using it all suggest a different solution the first thing that pops to mind is the problem can't be that bad because they arn't united in an effort to fix it. This isn't always true but I tend to think if the players can't agree on a change then odds are its pretty ballanced. EXAMPLE: RPG type MUD system where fighters whine that clerics are too strong and Clerics say that mages are too strong and mages say thieves are too strong and thieves say fighters are too strong. My conclusion: None of them are too strong and they ballance out so leave it alone. Now if everyone comes out and says "Fighters are too strong" I see a tendancy to look into it and see the problem and fix it. Thus if everyone is fighting for a change that they can't agree on it is less likely to be changed at all.

*second edit*

So lets all just focus on getting rid of player order combat starts and then once that is done we can all get back to posting our ideas that really are super great and better than *his/hers* until one of us wins.

[This message has been edited by Cyrien (edited 13 October 2001).]

[This message has been edited by Cyrien (edited 13 October 2001).]

[Rich04]

Simplest solution. Defender always goes first. Often a smaller empires only defense is to guard a warp point so as to get that first volley off. It forces the attacker to attack with a larger force. In real life the defender almost always has the advantage. In fleet engagements away from warpoints it doesnt matter much since you have no way of knowing which side will close range first and open fire. (I have simmed this [who will fire first] many times with equal forces. The side that fires first has the advantage but it could be either force that is fighting.)

Harder solution. All ships target/fire after both sides move and all damage happens at the end of the combat round.

The only problem with init that I see. Is it will tend to help the player thats ahead anyway most of the time. If he has got the ships/fleets he most likely will have the tech.

[Aristoi]

I'm going to stand by my original post and say that a simple random order would work best givien the situation.

It's obvious that the time of major changes is past in SE4, we'll have to wait for SE5. Randomizing the order should be trivially easy from a programming standpoint. This sounds like something that could happen.

I like the other ideas, but I think that it would just require too much work.

[Pustov]

President Delerith
Private First Class posted 14 October 2001 12:31

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Another option to the unfair warp combats is considering the surroundings of the WP unstable for a fleet to stand there. Therefore a fleet standing on a WP should start the combat on a border of the sector and no instant combat will occur.
However I would prefer combat order randomized on each combat.

pustov= I think that this the best fix for the game right now

[Suicide Junkie]

Note that if the defenders start at the edge of the combat map, sattelites will be useless in WP sectors.

[CaptSpoogy]

I think warp point combat should go like this: The defending force should have the advantage. They would be able to detect vessels moving through the warp point and be able to attack as soon as the invaders emerged...

In other forms of combat, I would have the defenders gain the advantage when defending a planet (i.e. first move) and the attackers to have the advantage against defenders when they attack while cloaked. For other regular situations, It should be random - sometimes the attacker will go first and other times, the defenders will get the first move...

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"Reality is a nice place to visit, but I wouldn't want to live there."

[Pustov]

Keep sattlelight and mines at the wp and ships at the edge of the map. How about that!