Guide MA Oceania - OMG, I think I've done it - Page 3

vfb · #21 February 19th, 2009, 08:02 PM

One more question ... why go 5A instead of 4A on the Ghost King? It's 40 points from 4A to 5A.

A 4A mage needs 4A gems to cast Fog Warriors instead of 3A gems for a 5A caster. But you'll be at 200 fatigue either way.

For the 5A rituals, you can make a booster.

Tifone · #22 February 19th, 2009, 09:04 PM

I was wondering about that too vfb

4A seems enough to me.

(and if you want really high A you can Wish later for the new A8 LA agarthan commander of CBM!! lolz

)

Baalz · #23 February 19th, 2009, 09:37 PM

Well, the thing about transformation is it completely removes upkeep cost. The upkeep cost of a unit is 1/15th it's cost, so if you transform 15 mages your upkeep savings will give you gold for a "free" replacement every turn. I don't know what the failure rate is, but if it's 10% (and you ignore the gem cost of transformation) then it pays for itself in less than two turns. That is to say if you have to pay for a replacement mage 10% of the time you can do it with the upkeep savings after a turn and a half. This also discounts the fact that the mages after the transformation are significantly more powerful if you plan to use them on land. The failure rate is further dropped if you just stash those upkeep free feebleminded dudes somewhere until you've got a bunch of fairy queens sitting around to heal them.

As to the A5, that's a bit of a judgement call but I was thinking about wind ride when I did it. Also, until you get all the way up to conj-8 your pretender is your only air support and it's useful to be able to cast fog warriors and not pass out (A5 with 5 gems) so you can then cast returning the next turn to keep your pretender relatively risk free. You could put the points elsewhere if you want, but it seemed a decent investment.

chrispedersen · #24 February 19th, 2009, 09:56 PM

Baalz, I think you missed part of my statement:

thats 10% dead, +20% feeblemind with +3 luck. Don't get me wrong .. I *love* transform - but with a couple of CBM Blood wizard exceptions, I don't generally find it mp competitive.

chrispedersen · #25 February 19th, 2009, 10:04 PM

So here's my prospective build for MA-Oceania:

Pretender: F4W4E4A4D4N4, Dom 4
Scales O3 D3 C3

First turn: Prophetize a siren. You could wait for for a bishop
in order have a H4 site searcher - but I find the utility of the siren much higher. Flying move 3. You are going to find a lot of kelp fortresses - the prophetized siren gives you quick options to lab/temple them.

Plus, the sirens can help you quickly find land sacred sites. The first couple of turns Research with your pretender. You don't want to fail a conquest and end up with your pretender twiddling.

With this build, I'd start on Construction immediately, to get the pearl factory going.

Baalz · #26 February 19th, 2009, 10:04 PM

I don't think you appreciate the implications of what I said Chris. If the failure rate is 3 times what I outlined then it take 3 times that amount to "pay for itself". I don't know what the failure rate is (I don't think luck scales affect it), but something that pays for itself in 2-5 turns is a pretty good investment. Assuming your numbers are accurate, if you plan on eventually recovering most of those feebleminded guys with fairy queens then the transformation is paying for itself in under two turns even if you don't think the new mages are any better at all. Even if you never recover a single feebleminded guy it's still massively worthwhile to start investing in this early on.

chrispedersen · #27 February 19th, 2009, 10:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Baalz

I don't think you appreciate the implications of what I said Chris. If the failure rate is 3 times what I outlined then it take 3 times that amount to "pay for itself". I don't know what the failure rate is (I don't think luck scales affect it), but something that pays for itself in 2-5 turns is a pretty good investment. Assuming your numbers are accurate, if you plan on eventually recovering most of those feebleminded guys with fairy queens then the transformation is paying for itself in under two turns even if you don't think the new mages are any better at all. Even if you never recover a single feebleminded guy it's still massively worthwhile to start investing in this early on.

Well, without a word from the sponsors we'll never know - but lets put it this way - I've noticed it enough that if I am going to transform - I always take +3. Not only to prevent death - but to get cool forms. Like Chimeras.

It isn't a question of how quickly it pays for itself, only Baalz. It also has to be better than all other opportunities. Is it better than simply summoning another Faerie queen, or another lamia? Or invading Russia.

vfb · #28 February 19th, 2009, 10:35 PM

Thanks Baalz, that's a whole new way of looking at Transformation!

I didn't consider the upkeep-cost avoidance. I think when I tried it, instead of using it to mass-convert my expensive recruit-anywhere mages into support-free units (not to mention getting rid of the annoying magic path loss), I used it once on a unit with exceptional paths, and once on an summon. Both died, but I was probably just unlucky. I think in the first case, I had to wield boosters to cast Transformation too, and they were lost when the unit just died.

About the A4/A5 ... you could cast Ritual of Returning, I think, and go with A4S4 instead. Any Magic Duels will usually happen in the first round, so if that happens your god is toast either way.

Something else though ... you do get one free get-out-of-death card with A5, I didn't consider that before. If you have to Call God to get him back and you started with A5, it's not as much of a problem as it is if you had taken A4. My plans in one game required extensive modification after my supposedly immortal A4F4 god was killed, bringing me down to A3F3.

chrispedersen · #29 February 20th, 2009, 02:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by vfb

Thanks Baalz, that's a whole new way of looking at Transformation!

I didn't consider the upkeep-cost avoidance. I think when I tried it, instead of using it to mass-convert my expensive recruit-anywhere mages into support-free units (not to mention getting rid of the annoying magic path loss), I used it once on a unit with exceptional paths, and once on an summon. Both died, but I was probably just unlucky. I think in the first case, I had to wield boosters to cast Transformation too, and they were lost when the unit just died.

About the A4/A5 ... you could cast Ritual of Returning, I think, and go with A4S4 instead. Any Magic Duels will usually happen in the first round, so if that happens your god is toast either way.

Something else though ... you do get one free get-out-of-death card with A5, I didn't consider that before. If you have to Call God to get him back and you started with A5, it's not as much of a problem as it is if you had taken A4. My plans in one game required extensive modification after my supposedly immortal A4F4 god was killed, bringing me down to A3F3.

Sounds like a diseased phoenix problem = ) And if you didn't have +luck I'm not at all surprised at the duel deaths. My #1 use for transformation is if I want to break into blood. I transform CBM Treelords. They retain the blood path, but the unique becomes resummonable. Its the best way I know to break into blood.

AreaOfEffect · #30 February 20th, 2009, 03:29 AM

First, loved your. Big fan.

Second, I haven't experienced the unluckyness that other people have with transform. I usually just end up feebleminded after about 10 castings.

Third, it is clear to me that the angle on this guide is non-standard and worth mentioning. If people want to put forth an astral/death angle, that's great. Just do it in your own guide.

Fourth, have you cast wind ride recently. Last I knew it was worthless as it couldn't transport a unit further then 1 province. This is the second time you've mentioned it recently and I can't be sure you are using the same spells I'm using.