Helicopter Evasion

[mosborne]

It a pleasure reading the comments, please consider my further thoughts below.

I would say this is really just how the game is coded to handle the situation. Helos are designed to fly at any altitude within the limits of their design. You don't know exactly whether or not an opponent has what kind of AD or where the AD is located. It would be nice to have sensors that detect radar emissions, but maybe that is for a later version. So for now, at some point you have to evaluate the risks vs what you seek to gain. High altitude provides good FOV, so there is value in the information that can be gained. So some may accept that risk under certain conditions. The concept of operation I would like to propose (never flown a helo)
a) Copter goes up to look
b) multiple missiles launched
c) helo takes evasive action
c1) evasive action at high altitude, doesn't make much sense since helo can not out fly missile.
c2) launch chaff and continue to fly at high alt., doesn't make much sense since other SAMs will detect continue motion and fire more SAMS
c3) evade to break missile lock by dropping altitude to ground clutter (I am guess that this is a tactic)
c4) evade to break missile lock by firing chaff and dropping altitude to ground.
d) resolve missile attack (concurrent with c)
d1) at least one missile hit - end of story
d2) all missile miss, helo evades
e) chagne state of helo to evade state.

Since the helo does not move far compared to the flight of the missile, might as well resolve all missile fires in the location of the helo spotted, then if the helo survives, it goes to lower atltitude just as ground units will take cover. The helo shouldn't fly around triggering more missile fires, because it has already got the answer it was seeking by going high in the first place. (can I go high to look around without being shot down).

My view of the world, but by no means the only view

[Wdll]

So, am I the only one that doesn't see a problem with how it is handled now?

[Imp]

Originally Posted by Wdll

So, am I the only one that doesn't see a problem with how it is handled now?

No to me its fine dropping would be nice sometimes but not others. I think the problem lies more in how people are using them, they are fast so they lead the strike.
Er because they are fast they are a good reaction force handy for boosting a force to get area dominance or finding that Para drop etc. Yes they can & should do some scouting but not at 100+ miles an hour as the only thing they will find is AAA so they deserve to die.
It should not be up there in the first place unless you think the risk is justified if it draws loads of fire as retreats YOU made a bad judgement call so in the big picture of things on needs fixing list would give a low priority.
It just encourages poping up to see if SAMs are about & I have a feeling your average helo pilot would not be to happy doing that.
People already bleed SAMs or find like this for arty etc & this will just lead to more of it as its easy.

Also certainly against early MANPADS that need a good heat signature turning & running is the wrong thing to do it should head towards the firer.
So now those MANPADS should only be able to fire if have a rear shot so game has to check its moving away from the firer (presenting exhaust) before gets a lock. In other words range increases
I think we are skirting the edge of whats possible with the game.
Also & just my view high alt represents up for a look, low nape of the Earth it does not just drop like a stone between the 2 & if had any forward momentum would still change hexes while doing so. The whole air movement thing is wrong because the game cannot give bigger turning arcs to faster moving stuff etc etc so it will still be wrong.

[Imp]

Does anybody else think that while having the helo dive may be more realistic in the big picture of things it will lead to more gamey tactics for finding bleeding AAA?

I am no expert but guess they would try to find or better avoid at low level only going to high if judged a safe bet.
To find at low level move behind cover (tree building hill) rise so just over & any fire can drop behind cover, now go round over it.
In game terms we do not have that level but represents pretty well as any AAA team worth its salt would probably hold fire if it saw this manouvre & wait for the helo to move to a position where it can't "duck". So they will not fire till helo is over or round the obstacle.

If your pilot wants to find AAA by going high the way it stands he has to pick his spot to do it at least. If change it can do it anywhere with comparative safety.
This to me seems totaly unrealistic & risk vs reward is one of the great decision factors in this game.
To me you dont try to find ATGs ATGMs with tanks & same applies to AAA you find it with grunts SEAD if possible. Till then flying high is a risk if you want your helos to live.
If you are not impatient & allow ammo reloads for them they are a great asset getting many kills if used in support of your ground force.

[Wdll]

Lowering the risks for going in high altitude would be bad in gaming terms in my opinion. This from someone that uses helos a lot.

[Marek_Tucan]

OTOH on real battlefield there would be much less radar-directed AA (heavy SAMs, radar AA-guns etc.) than it is possible in SP.

[Imp]

Originally Posted by Marek_Tucan

OTOH on real battlefield there would be much less radar-directed AA (heavy SAMs, radar AA-guns etc.) than it is possible in SP.

Than it is possible yes but often play pretty realisticly.
Possibly if high vis & think likely might have a couple of area SAMs but recent game playing as 2/3rds early 80s Soviet Tank Regiment had 4 ZSU-23s with radar & 2 basic SAMs Gopher as I think this is about right. Did have some manpads in infantry company but this was protecting 60 tanks & all the supporting infanty arty APCs etc.
Yes his air did find holes but thats how it goes, manpads did quite a good job in this particular game & lack of TI was a much more serious problem.

[mosborne]

Hi:
Like the many good points.
It probably would lead to abuse, but on the other hand-

The SAMs would be bled and spotted perhaps, just as easily the way it is now. Consider, the copter goes high and is shot at 4-5 times, all near misses (but likely inflicting some cummulative damage). For example, Site A fires, computer moves helo, Site B fires, computer moves helo, Site A fires again computer moves helo, Site C fires computer moves helo, etc. Some of the shots are from different SAM sites, others from the same SAM site. The multiple shots from the same SAM site will reveal their location. It also reveals the number of SAMs sites in the area.

The defender would probably like to have an opportunity to tune the range on his AD so that all don't go off, revealing their number and location. What could be even worst, is that they are all shooting at a target that could be out of the game with just one damage point.

Note also, that not even planes do what the helos do when fired upon by SAMs.

The other consideration, is the helos are not treated like ground targets. The ground targets get shot at from everyone who can see them at the location they are at. Whereas for helos, they get shot at from their original location and again when they are moved by the computer, when you loose control of them, to a new location.

Perhaps in this last comment lies the solution.

Maybe just remove the routine that moves the helicopter when it is shot at. Since in the big scheme of things and to be consistent with other units, all firing takes place at the same time for any move. So if I move my helo to location A (high or low), it may get shot at by multiple SAMs, but it doesn't move on its own (computer AI) to some other location, and drawing additional fire. This way, I can decide (assuming the helo survived) - change altitude, withdraw or continue. I think this could be the happy medium for all. Of course this means I can no longer get those helo kills by forcing the helo to move into range of my other AD, but I certainly like this idea better. In fact, I think under some cases, this is how it works too, just don't know what makes the computer decide to take over sometimes and not other times.

Cheers

[Marek_Tucan]

This way, I can decide (assuming the helo survived) - change altitude, withdraw or continue.

How much do you pay to your pilots so that you expect them to be stationary while being shot at?

IF the routine was to change, I would suggest a different one - that a helo, if it has enough experience and EW to notice missile being fired at, might take a "smaller" evasive move (say 3-4 hexes), if it breaks LOS to the missile unit it evades completely, if not, normal hit determination routine and "large" evasion ensues.
As for evasion patterns re. dropping from high alt to low (if being fired at by AAA/SAMs), I would guess the best would be a random approach - say based on experience and movement points remaining, the heli might go to low level.

[Imp]

The defender would probably like to have an opportunity to tune the range on his AD so that all don't go off, revealing their number and location. What could be even worst, is that they are all shooting at a target that could be out of the game with just one damage point

He does using Y key or op filter. AAA is the one thing change ranges on regulary. Leave at max if somethings under threat, turn it down so he comes in & then crank up a bit when to hit chance is better. If playing a human who flits about at extreme range high up to draw I will turn it down or off.
This does mean your suggestion to not evade is a bad thing as now when he pops up he is targeted by most of my AAA so would take some serious fire. At least evading increases his range generaly decreasing my chance to hit.

If it was my turn & he does not evade if I have 4 AAA units targeting what do you think his survival chances would be. Say 2 guns & 2 SAMs so 8 & 4 shots possibly.
Also I now just run a vehicle upto it & it does not run great I will blast away now its dead.
Just leave it alone I say.