PPB is the best weapon in the game. Discuss.

[Suicide Junkie]

quote:

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APB XII: 2.1 - 1.5, normal
CSM V: 0.8, seeker
MB: 1.75, normal
AMT V: 0.625, normal
QT V: 1.25, normal
PM V: 1.0 - 0.27, seeker
PDC V: 3.25, pointdefence, +70%
PPB V: 2.0 - 1.67, phased
RB IV: 2.5, normal
IB III: 0.9, normal, +10%
WMG III: 0.67, normal, +30%
TPC V: 0.375 - 0.188, Weapons only
ID V: 1.3, engines only
IPM V: 0.625, engines only, seeker
PN V: 15.0, planets only
NB V: 5.0, planet population only
GHB V: 1.21 - 0.33, normal
SD V: 7.5, shields only
DUC V: 1.33, normal
PC V: 1.33 - 1.0, normal, organic
HPB V: 1.67 - 1.0, normal, organic
ED III: 1.5 - 0.5, normal, organic
LR III: 2.0 - 0.5, normal, organic
SP V: 1.0, seeker, organic
AG V: 0.56, normal, organic
EAG V: 1.25, normal, organic
SC X: 1.17, skip armor, crystalline
HEM III: 0.917, normal, crystalline
TDB V: 1.0 (4.0), quad2shields, temporal
TS III: 0.33, skips all, temporal
TKP V: 1.75, normal, psychic
CW III: 6.0, warhead
MSD: 10.0, one shot, RuinsTech
MID: 5.0, one shot, RuinsTech
NSP: 0.4, skips all
CT V: 0.45, ships armor, seeker
SA V: 9.0, shields only, temporal
TC III: 1.2, normal, temporal, +10%
MSG III: 0.68, normal, psychic, +20%

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Where the damage rating is: Damage/KT/Turn
Accurate as of SE4 v1.35

[geoschmo]

quote:

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Originally posted by Phoenix-D:
The thing is, PPBs are so cheap- and almost as effective as APB XIIs- that you really don't need another direct fire weapon. Certainly no reason to research APBs or Meson BLasters..

Phoenix-D

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In a war, "almost as effective" can be a VERY Bad thing.

I agree that PBB's are too cheap to research. That makes them a formidable mid game weapon. But if you rely on PBB's and face an opponent with APB's or some other longer range weapon, you will get your lunch handed to you.

Now a case could be made that you could eliminate your opponents with PBB v's before they get to APB XII's. That is certainly true against the AI. I am not so sure in a game with several human players.

Even if you could, it's your aggresive style of play and superior tactics and strategy that would make the difference, more than your choice of weapon tech.

Geoschmo

[This message has been edited by geoschmo (edited 02 September 2001).]

[Dragonlord]

Wow, I am away for two days and see a whole bunch of replies. Phoenix, thanks fro backing up my claim there :-)
Alrighty, you all have presented some arguments as to why PPB is NOT the best weapon in the game. Let's see:

* Range - not as relevant as you would think. Sure some other weapons have better range, and they'll get in the first shot. Then they just sit there for a turn or two to reload while the PPB ship closes in and kills them. Plus your initial shot probably misses because of the accuracy penalty of long range weapons.
Fact remains that nothing beats the PPB as a direct fire weapons measured in damage/kiloton/turn. (see table that was reposted). Plus they are cheap to research.
Plus remember that I am talking about Strategic combat, so no dancing in and out of range manually. And if your opponent has such a tech advantage that his *combat* speed is so much bigger than yours that he can shoot, move away, and be far enough for you not to be able to move within your PPB weapons range.... then you're toast anyway.


* Phased shields? By the time I think an opponent might have them I just add some shield depleters to the mix. I'm not even going to bother with phased shields anymore. I can use all that research more wisely elsewhere. Note that the ONLY shield that gives you more protection/kiloton than a regular shield V is the phased shield V, which takes *ages* to research. I'd rather stick to a mix of normal shields and armor.

* Engine killers? Tried em. Don't like em. The only way I can see that strategy working is if you send some 15 LC's equipped only with engine killers against a larger enemy fleet. You have to have enough ships to disable ALL engines on on all their combat ships, then have enough left to move out of their attack range, then go after the support ships. And then 3-4 turns later their repair ships (in fleet) have patched things up and the enemy fleet is moving again. I'd rather spend resources on more attack ships than on wave after wave of engine killers which just slow down the enemy a few turns.

*WMG: see above. Not as good as PPB. Longer range (so what?) long reload time, expensive to research, and less damage per kiloton per turn than a PPB.

Geoschmo, I'd love to take you up on that challenge.

OK here is a sample ship design (by heart, don't know if I used all space available in the hull)
Battlecruiser, space 600.
Bridge, 2 LS, 2 CQ
6 JP engines
Solar Sail 3
ECM 3, Sensors 3, Multiplex 4
6 large mounted PPB V
2 PD V
6 Armor III
1 Stealth Armor 3 (for defense bonus)
1 Shield V

Or: a battleship, same as above, heavy mounts, plus 1 Scattering Armor III, and 3 shields V. Using a MC III instead of bridge/LS/CQ.

[Puke]

i dont know, man. in a low cost research game, you get those techs awful fast. especially if you focus on research as a race. 100 turns in, and you will be LOOKING for **** to research. you will be thinking, phased shields? sure, dont see anything better. engine killers? beats the heck out of rad extraction 4.

i think all those other techs will come into play, and the guys that specialize will wipe out the generalists sitting there with the tried and true PPBs. dont get me wrong. they are definitly a necessity early-mid-game. however, if you think you can avoid a fight until you get better stuff, and everyone has phased shield anyhow, by all means, bypass them.

besides, even if phased shields give less protection, they give a hell of alot better than ZERO if everyone is using phased weapons. and before you tell me that they dont give as good as armor, keep in mind the repair cost of armor vs the regenerative ability of shields as long as the generator is alive. phased shields I start looking real nice.

------------------
"...the green, sticky spawn of the stars"
(with apologies to H.P.L.)

[CW]

For me, nothing beats a Virus III plus a heavy mount Allegiance Subverter!

[rdouglass]

IMO, it is more important to fire first than what weapons you have.... Things being relatively equivalent (ship size, tech levels - not necessarily weapon types), the empire firing first usually will win (unless of course the ship was poorly designed). To me, this firing first seems to be a bigger factor in the outcome of strategic combat than the weapon types.

Having said that, I think PPB's are best for early - mid games and WMG's in the mix for later games.

[Q]

Dragonlord I used your design in the simulator against a very similar battle cruiser, where I just replaced the PPB by APB XII (6x heavy mount) and the stealth armor and 5x armor III by phased shield V (2x). In all my simulations so far your design was destroyed. Sorry but I think in the late game PPB are not any more the weapon of choice against other ships. It is however still very effective against fighters, because they do not have phased shields.

[Rich04]

Dragonlord I think most of the people posting here are talking about strategic combat. Basing their experiences on PBW.
I ran your designs vs the designs on the recent 'Close Combat Ships' topic. Your PPB ship lost every time to CW's 'Ripper Beam Ship' and Taqwus's 'Null Space Combo' designs. <To be fair it did beat many other posted design's >
So it isn't even the best at close combat.
PPB's are also very vulnerable to special racial techs.
I am still unconvinced PPB's are the ultimate weapon.
On using starategic combat 'fleet tactics' can make a huge difference. I know this first hand. In a recent PBW game, I lost my first few engagements vs enemy fleets. As other fleets engaged I tried different formations/strategies. Eventually I found the right mix for my fleets and soon they were winning. Nothing else had changed, if anything the enemy fleets had the advantage due to their recent victories (experience). Fleet mixes were the same. Went from only destroying 1-2 ships to only losing 1-2 ships. These were battles with fleets 30-40 ships in size.

[geoschmo]

quote:

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Originally posted by Dragonlord:
* Range - not as relevant as you would think. Sure some other weapons have better range, and they'll get in the first shot. Then they just sit there for a turn or two to reload while the PPB ship closes in and kills them. Plus your initial shot probably misses because of the accuracy penalty of long range weapons.

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Sorry man, but you are way off here. Assuming equal ship sizes, speed, etc, weapon range is not only just as "relevant as I think", it's the ONLY thing that matters.

quote:

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Fact remains that nothing beats the PPB as a direct fire weapons measured in damage/kiloton/turn. (see table that was reposted). Plus they are cheap to research.

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Now here I can't disagree with you one bit. In fact I am even more of a PBB fan for early/mid game since I found myself in a game recently with meson bLaster III's facing ships with PBB V's. Doh! But if you stop researching weapons after reaching PBB V, you won't Last long.

quote:

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Plus remember that I am talking about Strategic combat, so no dancing in and out of range manually. And if your opponent has such a tech advantage that his *combat* speed is so much bigger than yours that he can shoot, move away, and be far enough for you not to be able to move within your PPB weapons range.... then you're toast anyway.

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LOL. Dude, you must not have recognized my nick here. I am geoschmo, or as some people call me "Mr. PBW", at least my wife does. Not saying I am good or anything. I've been beat more than my share. But all I play is strategic combat. I'm not even sure I remember how to fight in tactical. laf.

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* Phased shields? By the time I think an opponent might have them I just add some shield depleters to the mix.

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But, why do that if PBB V's are the ONLY weapon worth researching? You're arguing my point here guy. Puke does a better job defending phased shields than I could. I would just be repeating what he said.

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*WMG: see above. Not as good as PPB. Longer range (so what?) long reload time, expensive to research, and less damage per kiloton per turn than a PPB.

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I agree. the long reload time on WMG makes them almost worthless.

quote:

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Geoschmo, I'd love to take you up on that challenge.

OK here is a sample ship design (by heart, don't know if I used all space available in the hull)...

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This isn't even hard. I don't even have to try this one. Your design is almost identical to one I tested prior to making my challange. As the other guy says, simply replace all the PBB with APB XII's, and your ship gets toasted almost every time. And if you throw in a religous tailsman, it gets beat 100% of the time.

My challange is unbeatable by PBB. There may be another weapon that can beat my challange, but it isn't PBB. Sorry.

Geoschmo

[Nitram Draw]

One thing to remember about range is you must have sensors/experiance for it to be an advantage. At range 10 any standard weapon has 0% to hit if no other modifiers come into play. Also as pointed out below, he who fires/hits first usually wins. I'd rather have a hip with a lot of PPB's than a few WMG once you start taking damage. All in all I think PPB's are the best direct fire weapon to base your fleet around but you definately need variety to win consistently.