OT: Malazan Book of the Fallen

[Hoplosternum]

Yes GRRM is pretty deadly. I haven't read the latest one yet. I'm waiting for the next so I can read them both together.

But I think his deadliness has become a bit of a weakness.

At first I loved that the evil characters seemed to have some actual character and understandable motivations and that the good guys often seemed to lose. People you liked actually died! But after 3000 odd pages it began to dawn on me that all I was reading was characters I like doing badly and getting killed. Evil is always much smarter and always gets the girls/power. While good is always portrayed as stupid or naive and gets dumped on repeatedly. It's like watching a soap opera

I think Erikson's novels are better. I like the battles a lot, although they are all too deadly and dramatic. And as always cavalry keep charging unbroken infantry and win. Bleh! But I think he has a better balance between the good guys and the bad. You get the feeling there might be a happy outcome for at least some people you like. But he can still be ruthless at times.

I like Jordan's books too. Terribly flawed what with endless tugging of braids, zero character development and hardly anything really bad happening to the good guys. But after 11 books you really like the good guys so thats OK.

Magician was a great book with the trilogy being OK, and I liked the Daughter of Empire ones too.

[MaxWilson]

Initially (in GotM) it wasn't clear that Malazan dragons were any different from regular fantasy dragons: a species of giant magical reptiles that fly and hang out with humans sometimes. Since then it's become rather clear that dragons like Silannah are something unusual, and it is in fact questionable whether dragons are a species at all (in the biological sense) or some kind of magical emanation from the warrens. There's definitely some weird stuff going on.

-Max

[Darkwind]

It seems like a lot of people here like the Malazan series (that is what it's called, right?), so I might have to see if I can get them at the library. I need something to read, anyways, while I wait for some of the books I want to be un-checked-out.

On A Song and Ice of Fire, I love it. It's a great series, I think, though I've only read the first two books (I can't seem to find the third). On the Wheel of Time series, I used to like it, but reading the books practically back-to-back, I noticed how badly thought out some of Jordan's world really was. That, combined with the predictability and stereotypicality of nearly every minor character and quite a few of the major characters, turned me off. Plus, after ~10 books (at some point I just gave up and stopped), I was beginning to hate, not love, the characters.

[HoneyBadger]

Well, individual dragons-and individual authors-notwithstanding, Dragons-as in their role in the collective subconscious-have really been wussified, even when it's clear that this wasn't the intention. I think people have become so enamored of dragons as representatives of magic and fairy tales, that they simply refuse to view them as anything other than diplomats from wonderland. Sure, some of them retain their power, intelligence, etc. but very little of the sheer cataclysmic horror that a dragon should invoke. I mean, these were the Cloverfields of their time. They wreaked towns, ate virgins, poisoned wells, battled the gods, consorted with-and often were-the Devil, and sooner or later, they were going to destroy the Earth ala Revelations.

[Lazy_Perfectionist]

Not a fan of Mercedes Lackey?

While her quality varies from series to series (Valdemar series is highly predictable... look, a magic horse! Guess who's joining up with them! And you can often tell within two paragraphs of meeting who's going to be the love interest) she has a few interesting ones to her name.

Namely, the Halfblood series starting with Elvenbane, and my favorite standalone novel by her, Firebird. Firebird isn't relevenant to this discussion, but the Halfblood puts an interesting twist on the whole fantasy racial sterotypes since Tolkein, what with evil elves enslaving all of humanity and the main character being raised by dragons as a pet rather than out of some draconic nobility. And the the only reason dragons are involved in the world's affairs is the simple fact they like to meddle, not any ambition, vengeance, or purpose.

That novel is rather interesting for having a draconic culture developed, rather than a stereotype.

There is of course, still a place for fearsome monstrous or noble dragons, just as long as they're not typecast the same way in 80% of all books they appear in.

[dirtywick]

I bought House of Chains in an airport once. It was more of a chore to read than enjoyable, and I've avoided anything written by him since.

[Kristoffer O]

I fully agree with you Honeybadger.

[Omnirizon]

on the topic of cliche fantasy (such as dragons)

JRPG's made airships totally cliche, but I still really like airships, and wish there was a game (even a roguelike) built around them. In fact, I kind of have a concept for an airship based fantasy in my head; it is kind of like the setting from Time of Defiance, but in a fantasy period. There are no races, only 'societies' (I've always thought races were not only cliche, but superfluous).

I'd go in more depth, but I don't want to hijack the thread, bore people, or have my material taken

making this game (as a roguelike) is one of my life goals
going into outer space is the other. I actually think both are attainable.

[HoneyBadger]

Thanks Kristoffer Does that mean you'll consider reassessing the role and image of dragons in the game?

I don't want to be harsh, I just find what's been done so far to be uninspiredly reminiscent of D&D, which is very jarring to encounter in Dominions.

[Lingchih]

HoneyBadger said:
Kristoffer: that's your problem right there!

Bring back real dragons! Bring them to Dominions! I'm sorry but, as nice as the dragons we have are, in the game, they don't quite terrify me. And Dominions is the one game where they absolutely should.

Yes, I would have to agree. Though they may be overused and cliche, dragons should be uber powerful, and they are not, in this game. Smaug the Golden, and Ancalagon the Black, those are the dragons of my fantasy. Even George RR Martins' dragons would be more powerful than the ones we currently have. I think that if you are going to upgrade any pretenders, Dragons should be the first.