The (not really) Official Endgame Summon Thread!

[llamabeast]

Not sure that I'd agree that every path requires a super-summon. The problem is to balance nations, not to balance paths; if one nation has a very strong early game with cheap F9W9 but cap-only sacreds, and another comes into its prime during late-game due to summons et al, and another is best suited towards lavish but expensive scales for cranking out high-quality conventional armies during a good midgame -- that seems reasonable. No need for mirror-image balance.

I very much agree with this, it's fundamental to the Dominions design philosophy. So each path should have a different feel and speciality.

It would, however, be nice if every path had at least some approach to the end game. Some paths just fizzle out (water and fire spring to mind), and if you hope to win a long game with a nation specialising in them you have to diversify to death or something. That's what we want to be fixing.

[Aezeal]

My sandworm from the nomads and genies mod I think it is a pretty nice end game beastie.

Beholders could do all kind of stuff, I couldn't see them as on par with tarts or seraphs I must admit but a bit less strong options wouldn't be that bad either.

wyrm based amphibious creatures wouldn't be bad either (midgard serpent like)

Son of Fenrir like beasties (or other large beasties) could be an option

ow and my favorite.. a DECENT SC phoenix summon (the pretender kinda... ehm sucks???)

Hydra mage summon would be nice too (commander and some item slots)

[sector24]

Another problem (which actually makes Dominions more charming than other games) is that the game really steers away from stereotypical fantasy. I'm sure everyone has noticed that none of the Norse inspired nations have dwarves, because dwarves and elves are totally overdone from a fantasy perspective. I suspect that's also why there aren't as many dragons in the game as there could be.

I also think "fantasy" fantasy creatures (those with no mythological basis) are not in the game simply because they are out of scope. But I guess they'd be fine for brainstorming purposes. So here we go:

Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse
Dragon King Zahhak (From the Iranian national epic Shahnameh)
Wendigo (someone else mentioned Sasquatch, basically the same)
Giant Spider (Shelob from LoTR, Anansi, etc.)
Basilisk/Cockatrice/Manticore/Chimera (These are somewhat covered by the Cross Breeding spell)
Sandworm (From Dune)
Grendel and Mother (although they have no physical description in the poem)
Cerberus/Garm (Giant Dog or Underworld guardian figure)
Leviathan/Behemoth/Ziz (I know they're already in the game, but these are supposed to be end of the world type creatures)

Apologies if I copied anyone!

[MaxWilson]

Let's rename the Ziz spell "False Ziz" and then make a *real* Titan-sized immortal Ziz with A4 and Str 25.

Edit: oh yeah! Don't forget three-bodied Geryon. Basically a giant with a whole bunch of slots.

-Max

[Taqwus]

Hard to beat a Hecatonchire's 100 hand slots.

[llamabeast]

Responses to jim's suggestions:

Balrog - E/F - demon, flying, fear, heat aura

I guess demons are pretty well covered already by blood though. Not sure we should be adding more demons unless there's a specific reason to.

Ettin - E - Ambi, extra head slot
Cockatrice - E/F - Petrify, flying

These are cool, but already covered by cross breeding. Maybe we could make different versions of them.

Treant - N - mobile treelord, summon ally: vine ogre

I'm quite keen on this one. Graphics will be tricky, but doable.

Sasquatch - A/N - trample, cold aura

Is that just a yeti?

Olm - W/E - mind blast, enslave mind

Nice.

Gorgon - E/N - (really, just like the pretender)

Maybe best kept as a pretender? Just thinking it is quite unique and powerful.

Shishi - A - flying, standard, lightning

What's one of these then? I can only find references to stone lions.

Much of sector24's mythology is beyond me (although this is exactly the kind of thing which will make for a good mod).

Cerberus sounds interesting. Would he be unique? Hard to imagine a dog big enough to be useful, even if he does have three heads.

I like the sound of a Ziz, even though I'm not clear what they are. False-Zizing the Ziz and Zizzing a new Ziz sounds ideal.

Like sector24 I personally am not so keen on adding non-mythological creatures like the beholder or sandworm, being as this is an addition to the (mythological) base game rather than a mod nation. As part of a mod nation those things are obviously pretty cool. Of course this is just a matter of personal taste.

[sector24]

Ziz is "the" giant bird at the end of the world in Christian mythology, to go along with Behemoth on land and Leviathan in the Mediterranean. God will slay these creatures so that the righteous will have food and clothing and tents, and possibly giant foam (leather) #1 fingers.

Actually, I believe Ziz comes from the Gnostic tradition and therefore it isn't in the Bible. But the more obscure the creature, the cooler it is to have in the game.

Cerberus allows the shades of mortals to enter Hades, but never to leave. I would imagine him as creature with 3 bite attacks that do 3x damage to undead, probably with 2 misc slots. Is there such a thing as undead-awe? That would be a great ability.

[chrispedersen]

I, for one, would rather see the game become *less* about endgame summons.

Decrease the importance, emphasize thematic elements, and better balance... not as easy as a quick patch

[JimMorrison]

Ahh, I am back, and fed!


- Balrog: Well I only labelled it as a demon, because I am under the impression it is often thought of as one. Honestly, it would be just as well to drop the tag and let it be its own thing.

- Gorgon: I will fight for this one to the end. There were many gorgon (gorgii..?) though only one was "famous".

- Ettin/Cockatrice: I've never had great success with crossbreeding, you can actually get such things? I'm at a loss here.

- Sasquatch: Well yes, it's the western hemisphere version of the same idea as the Yeti. I was thinking bigger, and meaner though, like giant sized, rather than "big man" sized.

- Shishi: It is in fact the creature embodied by those lion statues. In D&D (if you ever played), it was called a Foo Creature, very powerful air spirit, sometimes portrayed with a long flowing body like a furry Chinese dragon/lion thing. I was in such a hurry though, it should have Awe on it.

- You could look at Cerberus as "just a dog", but it would be "just a dog" with fire and death magic most likely, and probably size 4. I would have it protected by barghest or hellhounds in combat.

- The Four Horsemen: ... Sector24, I love you. Even if they weren't quite as tough as a Seraph (how could they not? 4 of them will destroy the world.....), they would be so cool to summon. Only sad part being, there's not really anywhere to put them but in Death, or Blood.

- Sandworm: Arakkian sandworms would be HILARIOUS. Give it flight and trampling, to simulate it bursting up from the ground and swallowing people, SO cool.

- Grendel: Forgive me my poor literary exposure, but I've not read Beowulf. However, if the film (it was silly, I know) has ANY grounding in the original work whatsoever, then we'd at least know that Grendel is a hulking and deformed brute, and his mother is some sort of a water demon? Grendel may be hard to conceptualize, but "water demon" leaves something to work with, especially if we go the same route as with the Balrog, and consider her demon-like, but not an actual demon, and summoned through water rather than blood.



Kirin - A/N(or N/S) - Chinese unicorn/dragon sort of thing, recuperate, healing

Chupacabre - ?? - Oh come ON, just say yes, don't overanalyze it.


Hmmm, I'm tapped for the moment, but I think later I will go through the pretender selections a little more exhaustively..... As far as having more humanoid summons, it's really VERY hard to find "myths" of supernatural beings that aren't ultimately described simply as some type of demon, or angel. At least, if they are to be "end game" type of power, else the lesser types have by and large already been covered, ie satyrs and dryads and such.

[sector24]

Concerning Gorgons, here's the short version from Wikipedia:

Around 700 BC, Hesiod (Theogony, Shield of Heracles) increases the number of Gorgons to three�Stheno (the mighty), Euryale (the far-springer), and Medusa (the queen), and makes them the daughters of the sea-god Phorcys and of Keto.

So it would have to be like the elemental kings where you only get a maximum of two; but Euryale and Stheno are immortal unlike Medusa.

Concerning Grendel, he was immune to weapons, so Beowulf grappled him and ripped his arm off. Grendel ran off to his mother to die from his wound. All we can divine from that is Grendel was humanoid (meaning most or all of his equipment slots!). Grendel's mother did live in a lake, and Beowulf's magical armor protected him from her attacks, so she tried to drown him by dragging him to the bottom. However, no description is given so she could literally be anything.