lamentation for a queen

[WraithLord]

Some examples will be nice, but IMO VQ is not really less than ideal, its out right useless. I think for probably all of the pretenders its possible to find a scenario in which they would be useful, or cost effective. Currently, for the VQ I can't seem to find any use at all. If there is one that I'm missing then I'd truly like to know about it.

[Omnirizon]

WraithLord said:
Some examples will be nice, but IMO VQ is not really less than ideal, its out right useless. I think for probably all of the pretenders its possible to find a scenario in which they would be useful, or cost effective. Currently, for the VQ I can't seem to find any use at all. If there is one that I'm missing then I'd truly like to know about it.

she makes a pretty good scout

[sector24]

There are a lot of large high HP pretenders that don't have the kind of stats or abilities that you'd want for early expansion, nor high starting paths for a bless. Just a few examples:

Lord of War
Father of Serpents
Jade Emperor
Lord of Plenty
Lady of Fortune
Celestial General
Mother of Monsters
Lord of Rebirth
etc.

I do agree with you that the VQ is currently a far worse choice than any of these. I didn't mean to argue against your point, just provide a different perspective. If you think of the VQ as the Celestial General's smaller sneakier sister, then she just becomes another pretender that you never really use but the AI seems to choose all the time.

[vfb]

That "King of War" guy with 10 encumberance or whatever is pretty crappy.

I thought I'd have to take the VQ in a game where I'm handicapped, by the other players choosing my nation and pretender chassis. Here are two ideas that sort-of work:

1) Combat VQ. Death-5 gives fear, Awe-2 for defense, and immortality in case it doesn't work. Could fly-sneak onto an enemy capitol for Dom kill, but risky with Stealth 0, 'cause her immortality won't save her if she's found.

Awake
Death 5 Blood 3
Dominion 10
Turmoil 3 Sloth 3 Cold 1 Fortune 3 Drain 2


2) Blood Hunt. Imprison and take good scales, non-blood nation, and use her to start getting you into blood sometime.

Imprisoned
Death 1 Blood 2
Dominion 6
Order 3 Productivity 2 Growth 2 Fortune 3 Drain 2

[Endoperez]

I've actually chosen Father of Serpents for MP. I wanted to go for Entchantment, race for Gift of Health, and decided to pursue Nat/Death. He was the best choice for it (about N5D5, dom 7-8 or so, mediocre scales). I was quite annoyed at having to pay so much for a chassis which isn't that much better than various other choices, but it was best for what I wanted.

[Foodstamp]

I agree with what a lot of people have said about the cost being lowered. I think her abilities should mirror the other vampires, just lower her cost to reflect the changes that were brought on after the cost raising (Or did the etherealness get taken away when she was originally nerfed? I can't remember.)

[Velusion]

Unfortunately many of the pretender choices are overpriced - the VQ is just the best (and most drastic) example.

[quantum_mechani]

Foodstamp said:

But the discussions that led to her being toned down were during the Norfleet thing.

The first round, yes. However that round of discussion and nerfing happened during the dom2 patches, and general consensus was that she was still viable then. It was only much later in the stretch between dom2 and dom3 that she became a truly poor choice, losing ethereal and gaining still more cost.

[WraithLord]

sector24 said:
There are a lot of large high HP pretenders that don't have the kind of stats or abilities that you'd want for early expansion, nor high starting paths for a bless. Just a few examples:

Lord of War
Father of Serpents
Jade Emperor
Lord of Plenty
Lady of Fortune
Celestial General
Mother of Monsters
Lord of Rebirth
etc.

I do agree with you that the VQ is currently a far worse choice than any of these. I didn't mean to argue against your point, just provide a different perspective. If you think of the VQ as the Celestial General's smaller sneakier sister, then she just becomes another pretender that you never really use but the AI seems to choose all the time.

I agree with your point about less than ideal pretenders. I'm glad (or rather sad) we both agree that the VQ is the worst in the list.

As for the titan pretenders, they cost less than VQ, have higher starting dominion, are not undead (immune to undead spells, banish), are size 6 (immune to trample) so they are much better cost-effective wise than VQ. Also, some of the pretenders in your list also have magic cost path lower than that of VQ (IIRC mother of monsters is one example)

The father of serpents has a valid role as a rainbow mage, a category there's just no way the VQ can fit.

[WraithLord]

vfb said:

1) Combat VQ. Death-5 gives fear, Awe-2 for defense, and immortality in case it doesn't work. Could fly-sneak onto an enemy capitol for Dom kill, but risky with Stealth 0, 'cause her immortality won't save her if she's found.

Awake
Death 5 Blood 3
Dominion 10
Turmoil 3 Sloth 3 Cold 1 Fortune 3 Drain 2

And how much does this build cost?- Compare it the a POD or Wyrm or virtue. Is it really viable next to those?

vfb said:
2) Blood Hunt. Imprison and take good scales, non-blood nation, and use her to start getting you into blood sometime.

Imprisoned
Death 1 Blood 2
Dominion 6
Order 3 Productivity 2 Growth 2 Fortune 3 Drain 2

Blood hunt, FoB is *much* better hunter and cheaper and has better dominion.

My point is not that VQ is on itself useless, its useless when compared to existing pretenders. There's no niche for her. In every possible category there are some pretenders that are better and cheaper than her.