Alexander's Ever-Expanding Tome of Knowledge, pt 2 - Page 3

HoneyBadger · #21 January 10th, 2007, 02:55 AM

The Wyrm is a fine Pretender, there's no question of that, but the thing that makes an Ancient Kraken outshine a Wyrm is the Kraken's efficiency in dealing with large groups of creatures. Large groups of creatures-and you'll learn that this is much truer in Dom3 than it was in Dom2-are very common, and can be the bane of many an SC. Most don't deal well with them. The Gorgon is one that does, because of her inherant Petrification. 200 units attack most SC's and you've got 199, maybe 198 units, and a very dead SC. 200 units attack a Gorgon, and you've got an art museum full of classics. The Kraken also deals well with large groups, and it's got three ways to deal with them better than a Wyrm. 1: The Ancient Kraken has 4 tentacle attacks-8 with quickness-each able to instakill a single medium-toughness armored unit. 2: Poison cloud-the Kraken doesn't even need to specifically attack a unit to weaken those around it-and you can easily add Breath of Winter on top of that, making for two different types of damage, which is hard for large armies to be resistant to. 3: Rejuvenation-my personal favorite inherant ability. Rejuvenation isn't easy to get-easier than petrification or immortality, but still not a dime a dozen. No matter how many healers you happen to have, they're never going to be as efficient as a creature that heals itself, no muss no fuss. Plus-and this is the most important-I just like the idea of playing an enormous ancient giant badass ship-devouring kraken. I don't get the same thrill from a Wyrm. I don't know why, but I don't. Maybe if it had more heads?

Aleph · #22 January 11th, 2007, 07:28 PM

That's cool if it comes down to preference. I just don't see the edge; the Kraken needs to spend a round casting personal regeneration, so that's another damage shield that the Wyrm could have up, and with the additional item slots (both inherent and due to lack of need for poison protection and air breathing) and lack of need for Nature paths you can produce more Wyrms more quickly, so I think we're back to a conversation similar to the Mictlan bless strats. Some like super quality, others are happier with high quality in quantity.

Edit: Or a Carrion Dragon, which has a lot of the properties you like in the Kraken but more so - 8 attacks per round before quickness, recuperation, fear +10 - but can also raise the dead and when Gift of Reasoned has the benefit of already having 1 level each of nature and death, allowing you to avoid the 1st point premiums when empowering.

HoneyBadger · #23 January 11th, 2007, 11:30 PM

Oh yes, I love the Carrion Dragon. As far as I'm concerned, with the Gorgon and the Ancient Kraken, it's the third corner of the Holy Triumvirate of Dom3 SCs.

I just wish it were amphibious and/or immortal, but then I wish Ancient Kraken had 6 tentacle attacks (or ideally the 4 it currently has plus two killing-arms, like a real giant squid) 5% natural regeneration, an extra misc. slot (accounting for 10 total tentacles) and a bite attack.

Yes they would be overpowered. Yes, I would certainly give them a price-hike. No, they wouldn't be overbalancing, because they're still 1 unit moving 1 province a turn, and they still have plenty of disadvantages.

I think many Pretenders-SC Pretenders anyway-in Dom3 could use significant physical boosts, (not magic-path boosts mind you), to make them more outstanding compared to the droves and droves of units usually present in a game. Whatever it is, it's a GOD and gods should kick a godly amount of explitive.

The Gorgon, the Ancient Kraken, and the Carrion Dragon are the only Pretenders out there (that I am familiar with) that you can use continuously-from the beginning of the game to the end of the game-as lone province-taking SC's without risking death/crippling affliction. I don't think this is right.

Keep the multitudes of units on the battlefield, but bring back the SC, I say.

HoneyBadger · #24 January 11th, 2007, 11:47 PM

Gandalf, I noticed you stickied Tools and Tutorials in Mods Forum. Along a similar vein, is there any chance we could get this excellent thread stickied too in this forum? While you're at it, could we get the original stickied and added to this forum as well? Even though the original deals with Dom2 etc. it's definitely informative and useful for everyone, and should be one of the first things someone new to the game sees. A description and a rename wouldn't be a bad idea, for clarification.

While I'm at it, thank you Endoperez for posting this terrific thread and it's precursor in the first place.

void · #25 January 13th, 2007, 08:25 AM

Stunned by the weird discussion.
Generating a couple hundreds astral pearls a turn, yet struggling to find a way to win. Sorry, but simply I don't see that.

With THAT MANY gems, where "THAT MANY" stands for ten thousand gems (I do means 10000, assuming 33 "superior unit" x 300gem/per), any player, no matter johnny/tommy/spike who s/he is, should be able to win the game if s/he's not playing on a vast map, by "vast" I mean 2000+ provinces.

300 astral pearls =
* 12 Juggernauts
* or, 12 Abominations
* or, 12 Imprint Soul spell
* or, 30 Ghost raider spell (60 if it's 300 death gems) (that is almost enough to ruin somebody's day)
* or, 10 Black Death spell (20 if it's 300 death gems) (that is almost enough to ruin somebody's day, too)
* or, a silly....I mean a very equipped Seraph.
* or, ONE so-said SC kraken? (oh, yes, 300 is the "at least" cost for such a great unit.)

I'm not a great fan-of-tentacles. Not that great, at least.

Teraswaerto · #26 January 13th, 2007, 09:01 AM

Any strategy that involves Wishing for units and then empowering them is only for playing around in SP. The goal, I guess, is not really to win, but to make crazy units.

Anything that doesn't have all slots is generally bad choice for an SC. Empowering to let them cast buffs that make up for the slots is really wasteful and expensive. Only for SP, only for experimenting, etc.

Meglobob · #27 January 13th, 2007, 09:10 AM

Quote:

Teraswaerto said:
Any strategy that involves Wishing for units and then empowering them is only for playing around in SP. The goal, I guess, is not really to win, but to make crazy units.

Anything that doesn't have all slots is generally bad choice for an SC. Empowering to let them cast buffs that make up for the slots is really wasteful and expensive. Only for SP, only for experimenting, etc.

Spot on Teraswaerto.

SP and MP are too completely different games.

SP is very, very easy and for experienced players is just for testing strategys used in MP.

MP is a harsh, very rapid, ruthless game. Expect the unexpected in MP.

Very, very few MP games will get anywhere near wish before someone wins. Also anything, 'wasteful' like globals, low level summons, clam spamming etc...are useless in MP and will get you killed. In MP you after make every gold piece, gem, research count.

Teraswaerto · #28 January 13th, 2007, 09:29 AM

I agree in principle. However, some globals, clams, and even low level summons can be useful at times.

Globals are risky since they can be Dispelled so easily, and cost so many gems, but gem producing globals will pay themselves back quickly. Most others are very situational, and some I would probably never use (Ghost Ship Armada for example).

Clams are an investment to the future. Most of the time it's probably best to use the gems for something useful right then, but I would't say they are useless.

Low level summons can be used if there's a war you are losing and need every bit of help you can get. Saving gems does no good if you are wiped out.

HoneyBadger · #29 January 13th, 2007, 06:14 PM

Playing on very large 1500 province maps with many opponents is also a completely different game from playing on a 25 province map.

I'd play larger if I could.
That's the kind of game I like, and very-long-term is the kind of strategy I follow.

I also tend to play ocean races over land races (except for Mictlan) so a lot of units and strategies which I otherwise would use, aren't as available to me. I do consider globals (except gem-producers) to be wasteful, but I don't believe juggernauts or abominations are amphibious (maybe abominations, but I don't know).

And playing R'lyeh, how exactly are you going to manage to pull off a blitz game? All you've GOT are SCs (another reason to play huge maps). So I'm stuck with 1 very good SC capital only commander per round, kinda crappy to very crappy everything else, and summons. 12 abominations at a time might be great, but by the time I've crossed the board and it's down to me and one other nation, the other guy is going to be pretty damn tough too, and I'm going to lose abominations and juggernauts-lots of them at 25 pearls a pop.

If I can take out a hundred of the other guy's troops per SC of mine, and still keep the SC, it could very well decide the game, even if I'm putting all of my astral pearls into SCs. After all, I'm going to have a lot more of them than the other guy, because that's one thing R'lyeh's good for.

If somebody handed me 300 astral pearls at the beginning of the game, sure I'd use them differently than I would if I were producing that many every turn and had most magical research done.

People need to get around the idea that every MP game is a blitz game.

Teraswaerto · #30 January 13th, 2007, 06:25 PM

I've never played a blitz game. Have you played an MP game, HoneyBadger? I am curious.

I like games that last long. Getting to high levels of research is fun, but the only time I can see one would have enough gems to Wish for and empower pretenders would be if one had Arcane Nexus up and even then there would be, IMO, a better use for the gems.