OT: Muhammed-caricatyres and freedom of speach

[dogscoff]

"Islamic law, based on clerics' interpretation of the Quran and the sayings of the prophet, forbids depictions of the Prophet Muhammad and other major religious figures � even positive ones � to prevent idolatry."

And that's fine. It's their religion, and they are free to live by the rule quoted above if that's what they want.

The problem arises when people (in this case, muslims) start trying to impose their religious laws on people who do not follow their faith: If I was a muslim, then I would abstain from depicting mohammed, because that's what muslims do (or don't do=-) However, I am not a muslim, and as such I can draw him if I want to. No muslim can demand that I comply with their rules any more than I can demand that they comply with rules specific to christianity or anything else.

Now, a non-muslim might choose not to depict mohammed out of respect to islamic people, and I would very much respect that decision, but that would be a matter of courtesy, not obligation.

[AMF]

dogscoff said:
And that's fine. It's their religion, and they are free to live by the rule quoted above if that's what they want.

The problem arises when people (in this case, muslims) start trying to impose their religious laws on people who do not follow their faith: If I was a muslim, then I would abstain from depicting mohammed, because that's what muslims do (or don't do=-) However, I am not a muslim, and as such I can draw him if I want to. No muslim can demand that I comply with their rules any more than I can demand that they comply with rules specific to christianity or anything else.

Now, a non-muslim might choose not to depict mohammed out of respect to islamic people, and I would very much respect that decision, but that would be a matter of courtesy, not obligation.

Yeah, that's exactly the point, eh? Fundamentalists everywhere seem to feel the burning need to regulate other people's lives for them.

Don't like abortion? Don't have one.
Don't like gay marriage? Don't do it.
Don't like other people's cartoons? Don't buy their newspaper.

etc...

[Jack Simth]

alarikf said:
Yeah, that's exactly the point, eh? Fundamentalists everywhere seem to feel the burning need to regulate other people's lives for them.

Don't like abortion? Don't have one.
Don't like gay marriage? Don't do it.
Don't like other people's cartoons? Don't buy their newspaper.

etc...

Don't extend that too far:
Don't like murder? Don't kill anyone without very good cause.
Don't like theft? Don't take anything without proper permission.
Don't like rape? Don't force anyone against their will.

Most would agree that murderers, thieves, and rapists need to be caught and forced to conform to a moral code that doesn't include such activities, but it can be kinda difficult to tell where, exactly, one should draw such lines.....

[Renegade 13]

alarikf said:
Don't like abortion? Don't have one.
Don't like gay marriage? Don't do it.
Don't like other people's cartoons? Don't buy their newspaper.

That's all well and good, except for a few things. People who support and have abortions do not believe it's murder. Other's who think they should be illegal, believe it is murder. It is universally accepted that murder is illegal, so who is right, since people have differing and personal views on when "life" begins.

Same sort of thing applies to gay marriage. Sure, someone may not like the idea, but be tolerant of it. But those same people may not want it taught in their children's school that homosexuality is as "natural" as heterosexuality.

My point simply is that we do not live in a vacuum. Things that other people do/do not do can affect us all. Simply saying "if you don't like it, don't do it" is too simplistic in my opinion.

[Nomis]

IMO some of Muslims are very aggressive and violent... and nothing can change that. These cartoons was just the simple reason. They could probably find another, different stupid reason to start anti-catholics/anti-judes/anti-west war.

In Poland we have almost 99% Catholics and lots of jokes, funny comics, books, stories about inquisitors, fanatics burning witches, priests molesting animals, angels behaving like devils... much more offensive than these 12 cartoons and nobody even think about violent demonstrations, throwing stones, and bomb attacks.

Today I saw one picture on x-wars game forum (Players complain that game is very buggy, so it�s like "war with bugs").
http://forum.x-wars.pl/thread.php?po...0520#post20520
I explain that English word �Bug� sound similar to polish word means "God".
I'm catholic and I think it�s offensive, however I know that it's not serious, and just for fun.
Remember a Monty Python�s film "Brian�s Life" (or similar I didn't keep in mind original title)?.... Was controversial. Now it's just classic comedy. When we watched it some times ago even my grandmother (radical catholic) was laughing.

[Atrocities]

If they get this upset over a cartoon depicting the Profit Mohamad (sp) telling them to stop the sucide bombings, that they are all out of virgins, then image how mad they would get if they had depicted him having sex with a pig while drinking a fifth of scotch or something. "Druken and in love with ham."

I think the world understands that there are two standards being applied. Our standard, that being free speech and equal rights, the their standard, that being what it is.

Given a choice between the two, I will always choose freedom over oppression. No one in the world are going to take them seriously until they can learn to control their tempors and behave like civilised human beings.

But if your out to make them angry, at least you now know how to do it.

[Will]

Jack Simth said:

Don't extend that too far:
Don't like murder? Don't kill anyone without very good cause.
Don't like theft? Don't take anything without proper permission.
Don't like rape? Don't force anyone against their will.

Most would agree that murderers, thieves, and rapists need to be caught and forced to conform to a moral code that doesn't include such activities, but it can be kinda difficult to tell where, exactly, one should draw such lines.....

I say non sequitur here. Abortion, Gay Marriage, cartoons... they all really have no affect on the people protesting it other than it really annoys them and gets their britches up in a bunch. Murder, theft, rape... those are crimes directly against other people. Completely different class there, and comparisons between one do not carry over to the other.

And I know there are people who believe that an embryo is a fully human entity, and abortions are the same as murder. This belief is not nearly as universal as belief that murder, theft, and rape are wrong. So these people will just have to deal with the current implementation of the law, which basically states "it's not human until the fetus can live outside the womb". Don't like it? Don't get an abortion. Nobody's forcing you to. Still don't like it? Well, volunteer, and maybe convince some of these girls and women to consider some alternatives. Resorting to fear tactics, harassment, witholding safe-sex information, plotting to kill doctors... these things don't help the case much.

Ok, and I apologize for hijacking the thread, and bringing the OT even more OT.

[dogscoff]

f they get this upset over a cartoon depicting the Profit Mohamad (sp) telling them to stop the sucide bombings, that they are all out of virgins, then image how mad they would get if they had depicted him having sex with a pig while drinking a fifth of scotch or something. "Druken and in love with ham."

I think the world understands that there are two standards being applied. Our standard, that being free speech and equal rights, the their standard, that being what it is.

At, who exactly is the "they" you refer to in this post? Muslims in general? Most Muslims do no associate themselves with suicide bombers, just as most Christians tend to distance themselves from the Spanish Inquisition and Timothy McVeigh. Or are you setting out to be delibrately offensive in order to make a point?

[Will]

I think the context is fairly clear, that "they" refered to those who "(got) this upset over a cartoon depicting the (prophet Mohammed)". With "this upset" refering to the ones that got so upset that they went bat**** crazy, basically started riots, and got themselves killed. And AT's post is basically saying "DAMN, CALM THE **** DOWN!"

[Ed Kolis]

In my country we have people painting pictures of the Virgin Mary and smearing them with feces... and no fundamentalist Christians burn down any embassies...