A question on Atlantis

[Boron]

Graeme Dice said:

Black Sorcerors are F2E2D1?1 and 250 gold.
Pan are N3E2?1 for 350 gold.
Starspawn are S3W1?2 and 280 gold.
Vanadrott are A3B1?1 and cost upkeep like 200 gold units.

Kings of the deep cost more because they have excellent physical stats, so they are much harder to kill than human mages.

Kings of the Deep give you great access to both ritual magic and forging. They give Atlantis the ability to use every path of magic that's available. Voice of Tiamat gives you all the elemental gems. Deep seers give you astral, and the Kings of the Deep give you the death, nature, and blood.

i think the kings of deep are a bit too expensive .

-the black sorceror has 6 paths in total and costs 40 gold less . it transforms when wounded into an spider .
F2E2 makes excellent battlemagic .

-the pan : he has excellent battlemagic : charm , blade wind , with random fire pick magma eruption etc.
furthermore with turmoil he generates hordes of freespawn troops , the maenads
he is even more tough than a king of the deep because he can buff himself with e.g. personal regeneration , ironskin/invulnerability etc.

-the starspawn : 6 instead of 5 paths , the astral 3 is very useful in battle .
10 goldcost less then the king of the deep and very good HPs too .

-the vanadrott : normally unneeded because the cheaper vanjarl can do almost the same for 100 less gold .
the van mages are rather good battlemages too thnx to glamour and air battlemagic .




you are correct that the Kings of the Deep give you access to every path .
but most path increasing items need lvl 3 to forge .

so ryleh is a much better candidate for this .
they get 2* paths too but their starspawns are their main battlemages too so you have normally bigger numbers of them .
ryleh can midgame forge a ring of sorcery/wizardy so they get then easier +2 to sorceries and +1 to wizardy .

if you want to reach somewhere expect water lvl 5 , e.g. earth 5 for forge of the ancients or air 5 for airqueens etc. i think normally ryleh can reach it quicker than atlantis .

the problem is just that atlantis lacks useful battlemages so they have severe problems midgame . and their abilities to make scs are somewhat limited too .

[Cohen]

Personally I think the Clam Hoarding skill of Atlantis supply totally to the cost of his mages.

Indeed the total range of Magic that is affordable by Atlantis is great.
Underwater Voice of Tiamat rules. You start to gain some income for casting all other site searching spell on surface except death and blood ... but you can always alchemize your astral pearls (clam clam).

About combat magic, Atlantis has some more difficulties, but the fact every King of the Deep can quicken, and start firing spells of every element for the Atlantis enemy is difficult to say from what to protect.

In addition Atlantis (and Ryleh) has a lot of Globals and RItuals suited for his defence.

[Karacan]

Cohen said:
Underwater Voice of Tiamat rules. You start to gain some income for casting all other site searching spell on surface except death and blood ... but you can always alchemize your astral pearls (clam clam).

Voice Of Tiamat finds all Elemental sites. That means no blood, death, astral, nature, holy and unholy. The most interesting underwatersites are astral, so it's imperative that you add an astralsitesearching spell to your mages' duties.



That said, I certainly don't share the conviction of some selfdeclared experts that Atlantis is weak. Watermagic leaves a bit to be desired in terms of summons and impressive combatmagic, but the nation itself works very well. Frozen Heart is a great spell, especially against small Groups of elite soldiers, or not frost-immune SCs.

[Mardagg]

Boron said:

you are correct that the Kings of the Deep give you access to every path .
but most path increasing items need lvl 3 to forge .

That is not true.
For me,especially in MP,Earth and Death are the most important magic paths for Atlantis besides Astral and Water.
Earth for Dwarfen hammers and Death,because there are lots of nice summons,which fit very well into Atlantian troops.
Both have path enhancing items already at level 2,so no problem there.
In addition,also Nature has enhancing items at level 2...Astral...Water...

I feel that it has become usual for some people to consider certain nations or strategies weak or strong ,without ever having tested them enough in practice.
You know,there is a huge difference between theory and actual very deeply done playtesting(mainly MP),especially in this very complex game

I consider Atlantis to be a medium nation...playing water nations under certain conditions can be a huge advantage though.
The King of the Deep is for sure a strength of Atlantis and because of the 2 randoms belonging to the same path,it is not overpriced.
Also dont forget ,that it can be built everywhere.This should lead to a different result when comparing it with e.g. the Black Sorceror.

Regarding combat magic,I do agree with Cohen and Karacan.
The strength for Atlantis here,lies in the great diversity of available spells in addition with quickness.
Also you get access to some quite uncommon path combinations,which can surprise the enemy in combat.
If your enemy isnt frost immune,you are strong with quickened falling frost,niefel flames or frozen heart.
Dont forget,that Frozen Heart and Quickness can already be casted by the cheap Initiates of the Deep...thats a thing to consider.
At the very Last,you also have access to some potent Astral Combat magic.

[Boron]

Karacan said:

That said, I certainly don't share the conviction of some selfdeclared experts that Atlantis is weak. Watermagic leaves a bit to be desired in terms of summons and impressive combatmagic, but the nation itself works very well. Frozen Heart is a great spell, especially against small Groups of elite soldiers, or not frost-immune SCs.

lol i never said i am an expert rofl

mid-lategame with your mentioned tactics + clamhoarding atlantis may be not so bad sure .
but all undeads are cold immune ! so if you don't have lots of priests what i doubt because they are rather expensive ermor can be too hard if it borders the see and decides to wipe you out earlygame .

your other earlygame enemy ryleh is hard too .

finally midgame a attack with a few fully euqipped scs , especially ice devils can give you hard trouble too .
you can't summon banelords in the sea .
your water queens are inferior to ice devils .
getting a foothold on the continent + defending it is extremely hard as atlantis .
summonable scs in the sea are only afaik :
- wraith lords
- water queens
- in theory : the ice devils


most maps just support 1 underwater nation and most ppl chose then ryleh because most think it is a bit better than atlantis .

[archaeolept]

your water queens are inferior to ice devils .

:O

summonable scs in the sea are only afaik :
- wraith lords
- water queens
- in theory : the ice devils

kings of elemental earth, eater of the dead, perhaps half the tartarians if you really had no land...

[Graeme Dice]

Boron said:
but all undeads are cold immune ! so if you don't have lots of priests what i doubt because they are rather expensive ermor can be too hard if it borders the see and decides to wipe you out earlygame .

Coral Queens cost about the same as C'Tis Priest Kings. Consorts are very physically tough and cost the same as battle deacons.

your other earlygame enemy ryleh is hard too .

They aren't that hard for Atlantis. Your troops are superior to theirs, and you have access to friendly currents right off the bat. Illithid's are archers, and you have access to flying troops as soon as you conquer your first province.

finally midgame a attack with a few fully euqipped scs , especially ice devils can give you hard trouble too .
you can't summon banelords in the sea .
your water queens are inferior to ice devils .

What? Water queens are completely superior to ice devils, and would give air queens an easy run for their money. It's nothing to sneeze at when you can regenerate 40 or more hitpoints per turn on a unit with inherent water magic and 0 base encumbrance.

most maps just support 1 underwater nation and most ppl chose then ryleh because most think it is a bit better than atlantis .

That might have been true before the duration of Illithid paralysis was reduced to its current levels. Now, it's not too hard to overwhelm them with sufficient numbers. Try a water 6 Nerid with order 3, prod 3, misfortune 2, magic 3, kelp citadel. Or create yourself a nice meat shield out of the ancient Kraken to absorb Triton attacks.

[Mardagg]

Boron said:

lol i never said i am an expert rofl

mid-lategame with your mentioned tactics + clamhoarding atlantis may be not so bad sure .
but all undeads are cold immune ! so if you don't have lots of priests what i doubt because they are rather expensive ermor can be too hard if it borders the see and decides to wipe you out earlygame .

your other earlygame enemy ryleh is hard too .

finally midgame a attack with a few fully euqipped scs , especially ice devils can give you hard trouble too .
you can't summon banelords in the sea .
your water queens are inferior to ice devils .
getting a foothold on the continent + defending it is extremely hard as atlantis .
summonable scs in the sea are only afaik :
- wraith lords
- water queens
- in theory : the ice devils


most maps just support 1 underwater nation and most ppl chose then ryleh because most think it is a bit better than atlantis .

Early game,nearly all nations do fear Atlantis,because most dont have ability to go into Water yet.
Essential for Underwater nations normally is to get an early foothold on the land and therefore getting rid of the underwater summoning problems.
Unless facing Ermor,which wants to attack you(not that easy in early game for Ermor ,too,since Undeads are very bad in fighting underwater) and a few other exceptions,this shouldnt be a problem.
Also,you have to ask yourself:
Which nation wants to face Ermor early game?
Thats not only a problem of Atlantis.

Btw,in my Last MP game with Atlantis,I did go for a 9W blessing...ever watched how a few quickened Coral Queens and Consorts banish hordes of slow Undeads Underwater??
Me neither,mighty Ermor never dared to touch me up to the end and we did have huge borders early on
Atlantis,with its strong sacred troops,is one of the few nations were I still seriously consider a 9 blessing,when designing the pretender.

R`lyeh isnt too easy( I dont think,that R`lyeh has an advantage against Atlantis though),but R`lyeh has more diffculties in conquering underwater Indie provinces,than indie provinces on land.So ,if R`lyeh concentrates first on land provinces,it may take a while,depending on the map,until both border each other,and even then ,an alliance against all landlubbers is also a possibility.I was able to make an alliance with R`lyeh in both MP-games I played Atlantis

I think most people choose R�lyeh instead of Atlantis,because its more interesting to play and very unique.
It may be slightly better,too,but you have a lot of trouble if you face someone who is able to deal with the Mind bLasts easily.

Atlantis is a bit boring to play, I discovered that myself.
Thats why I really would like to see a theme there.

[Boron]

Graeme Dice said:

What? Water queens are completely superior to ice devils, and would give air queens an easy run for their money. It's nothing to sneeze at when you can regenerate 40 or more hitpoints per turn on a unit with inherent water magic and 0 base encumbrance.

The best ice devil statwise , Bune has 16 att and 20 def .
The water queens have 15 att/def .

Both have watermagic so both can cast water shield and quickness .

The ice devil can easy take either bloodthorn + lucky coin shield or wraith sword .

All in all the final result is that the ice devil has about 5 more def and something like def 25-30 in total while the water queen has about 20-25 def in total and the ice devil has even 1 higher base attack .
So the water queen hits with odds like < 1% while the ice devil has a first hit chance of like 3-5% .

With the bloodthorn/wraithsword he slowly fatigues the water queen which reduces def . So the waterqueen will fatigue out normally sometime and die then .

You can of course take reinvigoration items but the ice devil has already 1 slot advantage : the foot slot .
If you want to take a reinvigoration item with your waterqueen the ice devil has even 2 slots advantage then .

A waterqueen just almost can't hit a correct equipped icedevil while she gets hit occasionally which is enough for the ice devil to win . So the ice devil should win about 990 of 1000 fights against a water queen .

The ice devil though is probably the only Nonpretendersc which beats a waterqueen Sc underwater .

[Graeme Dice]

Boron said:
The best ice devil statwise , Bune has 16 att and 20 def .
The water queens have 15 att/def .

The ice devil can easy take either bloodthorn + lucky coin shield or wraith sword .

So can the water queen. There's no difference in the equipment this way.

So the water queen hits with odds like < 1% while the ice devil has a first hit chance of like 3-5% .

If you're going to make your argument solely on theory and statistics, then you should really make sure that you get those statistics correct. A 5 point difference between attack and defense means that the water queen will hit 14% of the time, assuming that you haven't outfitted her for increased attack and defense.

With the bloodthorn/wraithsword he slowly fatigues the water queen which reduces def . So the waterqueen will fatigue out normally sometime and die then .

The water queen has a base encumbrance of 0. Life drain should not increase her fatigue at all. If it does, then she'll be able to recover it all back everytime that she does hit the ice devil. After all, her attacks cost her no fatigue.

You can of course take reinvigoration items but the ice devil has already 1 slot advantage : the foot slot .

Which will likely be taken by flying boots, which do nothing underwater. There is no other boot that would be of any particular benefit in this combat.

A waterqueen just almost can't hit a correct equipped icedevil while she gets hit occasionally which is enough for the ice devil to win . So the ice devil should win about 990 of 1000 fights against a water queen.

You might want to not use invalid numbers to support your purely theoretical arguments that go against what you'd actually see in the game.

The ice devil though is probably the only Nonpretendersc which beats a waterqueen Sc underwater .

It won't beat one underwater.