Winning w/o a SC???

[HotNifeThruButr]

Knights are the best option I can think of for Man. Axemen might do the trick, but I don't play Man much.

Normal footies can have glaives? I need to start playing Tien Ch'i again.

My problem with Machaka non-hoplites is that they don't carry a nasty enough weapon. That 3 damage spear isn't likely to scratch a Giant. Maybe spider riders can entangle the giants and then finish them off, but I think they too, use spears, and they're not cheap.

With Demons, you need to remember that they, like most cavalry, have astronomical Def skills, so giants will likely not be able to hit them.

For the Vanheim choices, if axes do 7 damage, then the Huskarl with axes will be a good alternative to Shifters or Einheres. On another though, Einheres are horrible against giants. Once a unit goes berserker, they depend on Prot instead of Def to protect them. Giants have problems with Def, but never with Prot.

I've just fought against a comp Pythium, and learned that Velites have 14 Def. Maybe you could consider them a good national response against Jotun. I like to think of national troops because it's not guaranteed that you'll get the right Indies in the right places to respond to the giant threat.

Atlantis, I had a hard time coming up with anything for our fishy friends. What would you suggest to break through the giants' armor?

With Ulm, what DOESN'T have heavy armor? Seems to me like Jotunheim can kill everything ulm might scrape together.

With the elephants, yes, they can trample giants, but I don't know what Arco and Caelum can use to crack the armor. Arcosephale has an unhealthy obsession with spears while I haven't played Caelum much.

For Pangaea, their centaur warriors have INSANE defense. All satyrs carry spears, but have 11 strength, so they could be a good alternative. I often find Centaur Warriors a good option though. With the Warriors, it really hurts when you get hit, but chances are, you won't get hit at all. Maenads are definitely a plus, but I try to get Order with Pangaea to afford Centaur Warriors, I'd probably change my strategy if it was only me against Jotunheim, but chances are, they'll be more nations.

The main problem I think about, when fighting Jotun is their heavy armor with 30+ hit points. I've been thinking of ways to bypass that armor, instead of the best ways to survive giant attacks. Maybe your way is right, and maybe my way is right, PvK, next game, I'll try throwing tons of crap (gorilla strategy?) at the giants and see how well it does

In other words, you're coming up with ways to minimize your own losses while I'm coming up with ways to maximize Jotun losses. A good strategy will be to put the cheapest units available on the front against the giants, then, while they're occupied, more heavily armed soldiers can hit them from the flanks.

Off topic: But Flagellants are the cutest

Edit: I'm probably biased towards Tien Ch'i summons 'cuz I love 'em so much. Knights have 14 def skill, so don't you dare use them against Jotun.

[ June 24, 2004, 05:28: Message edited by: HotNifeThruButr ]

[Kel]

Originally posted by HotNifeThruButr:
I've just fought against a comp Pythium, and learned that Velites have 14 Def. Maybe you could consider them a good national response against Jotun.

Ctis has 20 gold, 5 resource, sacred, 16 def serpent dancers if you really want a high defense. YMMV with bless strategies.

With the elephants, yes, they can trample giants, but I don't know what Arco and Caelum can use to crack the armor. Arcosephale has an unhealthy obsession with spears

Arcos is my favorite nation. They have a great defense against Jotuns:
Paralyze / soul slay / enslave.

In other words, you're coming up with ways to minimize your own losses while I'm coming up with ways to maximize Jotun losses.

Keep in mind a heavy nature blessing strategy (not uncommon against the opponents I have played) with the giants might make for a different answer.

- Kel

[PvK]

Ya, I don't really care if my fodder can easily hurt the giants or not. That's not their job. Their job is to get attacked instead of the units who are hurting the giants. Preferably, those who really hurt the giants are out of range of thrown boulders, and are probably casting spells or firing arrows.

Ulm doesn't have anyone unarmored except mage types. The arbalests aren't a bad choice for the rear ranks. I usually have arbalests in a seperate army from my national Ulm HI anyway. I wouldn't send more than 1/3 Ulmish national troops in the main body against giants. They can sort of do that "nationally" by taking their best fodder indy province and building a fort there, using their usual high productivity on low-resource troops of the cheapest kind, to get a bunch of dummy targets for the Jotuns to try to kill. The Jotuns will tend to be stopped for several turns just trying to hit all the targets, and wearing themselves out trying to hit them all, while whatever else hits the giants.

There are various ways to help make this work when arranging the army on the field. If you do want to use some strong melee units on them, I'd likely send a wave of all-fodder first, followed by a wave of fodder mixed with good troops (mixed spacially - not necessarily in the same squad).

PvK