SCs other than the vq

[Jasper]

Originally posted by Pirateiam:
...I will not defend my strategy. I will be the first to admit I played poorly and was not ready for Ermor SG...

Actually, you've been complaining that it's due to the overpowered Vampire Queen, not your poor play.

If -- as you claim -- you played poorly, perhaps this is the cause of your defeat, instead of the dread power of the Vampire Queen?

[Jasper]

Originally posted by Kristoffer O:

quote:

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Originally posted by Pocus:
Phoenix cant be used reliably as SC, the base hit points is too low.

Phoenix is splendid. 1 evoc (fire darts) is all you need. Reliability comes from immortality rather than HP.

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Is this truly so effective? The odds of failling to take provinces seems too high to me, even if you don't die. Moreover, the investment necessary for the effect is great.

There are some nice tricks that actually take advantage of immortality later in the game, e.g. Cloud Trapezing hurting your foes then dying so you can immediately Cloud Trapeze again, or Phoenix Pyre. But these aren't much help during expansion, and in any event the inability to use items IMHO becomes a larger and larger liability as the game goes on.

[Pirateiam]

Originally posted by Jasper:

quote:

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Originally posted by Pirateiam:
...I will not defend my strategy. I will be the first to admit I played poorly and was not ready for Ermor SG...

Actually, you've been complaining that it's due to the overpowered Vampire Queen, not your poor play.

If -- as you claim -- you played poorly, perhaps this is the cause of your defeat, instead of the dread power of the Vampire Queen?

---

While I have not been defeated yet, I will admit that my possible defeat is my fault alone. How does that prove the VQ is unbalanced?????? Wow I give up!!! Just some final advice to an old beta tester to another beta tester. As a beta tester instead of jumping on one side you need to open your mind up and test out possible balance problems. If you have done this already and it is the conclusion of the betas and devs there is no problem then I will except it. We only wish to bring this possible unbalancing to your attention. I am tired of this and I never get into flame wars like this so I apoligize for anything I have said and I will no longer discuss this.

[Kristoffer O]

Originally posted by Jasper:
Is this truly so effective? The odds of failling to take provinces seems too high to me, even if you don't die. Moreover, the investment necessary for the effect is great.

There are some nice tricks that actually take advantage of immortality later in the game, e.g. Cloud Trapezing hurting your foes then dying so you can immediately Cloud Trapeze again, or Phoenix Pyre. But these aren't much help during expansion, and in any event the inability to use items IMHO becomes a larger and larger liability as the game goes on.

Probably more fun than effective. Horrible scales, but that doesn't matter much. I have one positive scale (luck +1). Most provinces are waste anyway. Dom 10 combined with restless worshippers and abysian blood sacrifice makes the dominion spread across enemy lands for my Phoenix to conquer. I have never tried this before, but it is much fun. Unfortunately it's the world map and everyone has two starting locations. It is difficult to dom-slay pretenders half across the world without help.

[archaeolept]

I'm quite amazed by how clueless the beta-testers seem to be about all this. I guess this is just an endemic problem w/ any small closed community - certain activities will become standard, and new variants just won't occur to those living inside the gates. As well, I would think that certain unbalanced strats would be negated but only by the fact that beta-testers are consistently and coherently able to pursue advanced strategies and tactics. The game might still be unbalanced for the vast majority of players even if a group of skilled beta-testers is able to get around an inbalance.

However, as far as the VQ is concerned, and much like the previous discussions on clams (and one would expect the same w/ a discussion on castling), too many people seem to think they know what they are talking about when they obviously do not. The problem is not clams as they occurred in that game you played w/ your brother yesterday, or the VQ you designed w/ 8 blood playing vanheim; the problem is in the extreme variants that can be created.

The canonical VQ uber-pretender is Norfleet's philinnon. She has the same name every game since Norfleet has no need to ever redesign her. She starts off w/ 400 pts in paths, above the 110 pt cost for the chassis. This is easy to afford w/ Ermor, though actually he hasn't had much difficulty using her w/ Caelum or Mictlan either.

The use of castles makes his territory almost invulnerable in the early/mid game. Frankly, I'm not sure i've ever seen him lose a castle as Ermor: the problem being, that once one has a sufficiently strong force to perhaps deal w/ his VQ (in your dreams, at least), he will have gateway and the like, so not only does your besieging army have to be prepared to take out an uber VQ, it must also be equally prepared to take out a huge magically tricked-out conventional force, and/or a large body of summons. As he sees fit, since you have to wait around for the turn to break down the walls.

By this time, clamming has probably led to chain casting of wishes. Chain casting them by turn 40 would seem to be quite possible. "magic power"X4 or 5, + "power" i believe. then start summoning more vampire queens. rinse, repeat.

As well, you are having to deal w/ serious dominion push, since all his territories have the castle/temple combo. good luck w/ that. In one game, as r'lyeh, he had at least 23+ castles by turn 21 or so. that's not unusual.

catquiet may be copying these undoubtably effective tactics, i'm not sure, since the only game i've played w/ him he had a phoenix.

Weeks ago when I was feeling frustrated by this combo tactic the only response I got from veterans (Zen) was that I must be a total noob. No doubt I was (and am), but that he was unable to give concrete counters was pretty telling.

Now, at least a number of people have had real experience of this tactic. Graeme knows it intimately, and Rabelais is experiencing his first joyous encounter.

How does one conquer ermorian castles defended by an uber VQ? other than by creating a vast world-wide alliance w/ a dozen committed armies.

(and even then...)

Originally Posted by Jasper
IMHO this is not sufficient to magically keep people from invading.

sorry? how? can you be a bit less than completely vague? how are you conquering his castles? by "magic"? lol

[ May 04, 2004, 21:36: Message edited by: archaeolept ]

[Norfleet]

Originally posted by archaeolept:
How does one conquer ermorian castles defended by an uber VQ? other than by creating a vast world-wide alliance w/ a dozen committed armies...

The VQ is not the ultimate warrior for SC vs. SC combat: The VQ excels primarily in the destruction of enemy troops, preferrably living: Against non-living, particularly cold immune troops, the VQ's ability to kill is hampered by her generally mediocre strength and attack values: Combat will expire before she can even kill two dozen Jot woodsmen with N9 bless, or about a hundred ghouls.

Ermorian castles are tougher nuts to crack, but the great expense of Ermorian castles does slightly impede consolidation speed due to their longer construction times and greater cost, combined with Ermor's lack of income, even after accounting for not having to pay upkeep or buy troops any kind. This is one reason why Rabe has a larger empire than I do.

However, all you have to do is strike at an Ermorian castle with sufficient force to begin damaging the gates. Cast Crumble, and you'll have an instant breach, if you felt your regular army was not enough to breach. Do this in more than one place, and the defender will be forced to choose which province receives the aid of his pretender.

Now second-guess him: Which one do you think he'll choose to defend, based on his present location, dominion, and strategic overview.

Don't storm that castle, or withdraw completely. If the VQ teleports in, it's now stuck in that castle, and must decide whether to immediately teleport to the next hotspot, or attempt to sally and wipe out the attackers alone: Since friendly movement occurs first, if you withdraw, his VQ will encounter no resistance and have fruitlessly wasted two turns.

What can you do in two turns? Siege and storm a castle elsewhere. Congratulations. You've just cost him a castle while losing next to nothing. Wasn't that so nice of him to build you a castle to protect your new temple with?

Sooner or later, you'll be able to force your way to the capitol. He *WILL* defend that. Be sure you have a plan to kill his pretender there. Now that you have the capitol occupied....bye-bye immortality.

Originally posted by archaeolept:
I'm quite amazed by how clueless the beta-testers seem to be about all this. I guess this is just an endemic problem w/ any small closed community - certain activities will become standard, and new variants just won't occur to those living inside the gates.

Are you sure this isn't what's happening to YOU? I seem to notice that you've played many of your games against, well, me. In fact, you cite my own VQ as the canonical example. Are you sure it is not YOU who needs to get out more?

Originally posted by archaeolept:
She has the same name every game since Norfleet has no need to ever redesign her.

Actually, I've done several redesigns, but I've kept the name. Why? Because I'm terrible at names. Have you seen how I name my mages? So once I like the name, I keep it.

[ May 04, 2004, 21:41: Message edited by: Norfleet ]

[Graeme Dice]

Originally posted by Jasper:
In any event, IMHO you underestimate the power of Dust to Dust and Wither Bones. Wither Bones in particular will make short work of 20-30 undead fodder.

Yes, it will, but then your mages won't cast it on her because your own skeletons are also in the area of effect. The same thing happens with dust to dust I've found.

Moreover, you are counting on opponents not casting effective spells after their scripts run out, which IMHO is not reliable.

I've had 10 astral 2 mages cast paralyze for a dozen turns in a row instead of casting solar rays.

IMHO this is not sufficient to magically keep people from invading.

It usually is till around turn 30, and if you can keep people out till turn 40 or 50, your level 9 spells start to show up.

[archaeolept]

of course there are many ways to deal w/ a VQ. however, none of them really do anything, since she pops up again immediately. yah, dust to dust can work, especially en masse. Another SC can work, as long as you've been pursuing a clam/wish strategy as well such that you can stand up to her "magic power" X5 and "power". oh, and also when your pretender is killed, as will happen some good percentage of the time, you gotta pay the price. Not the VQ though.

Are you sure this isn't what's happening to YOU? I seem to notice that you've played many of your games against, well, me. In fact, you cite my own VQ as the canonical example. Are you sure it is not YOU who needs to get out more?

given the large number of public games around here that you play in, it would be rather difficult to avoid you.

[ May 04, 2004, 21:51: Message edited by: archaeolept ]

[Norfleet]

Originally posted by Graeme Dice:
I've had 10 astral 2 mages cast paralyze for a dozen turns in a row instead of casting solar rays.

This is clearly the fault of the stupid spellcasting AI (which fails to consider odds of success when picking a spell, and does not sufficiently prioritize killing things), and the damnable 5-spell script limit, which in combination with the above, basically assures that most mages will not do anything intelligent past either the 3rd, or 5th, turn of combat.

I think we are all in agreement on the above issues.

[Norfleet]

Originally posted by archaeolept:
given the large number of public games around here that you play in, it would be rather difficult to avoid you.

So you acknowledge that I play often, generally with the same strategy, and thus have had the opportunity to hone it specifically, and that my effectiveness may be due more to my practice and experience, compared to your relative lack thereof, rather than the fact that VQs and clams are completely and utterly broken, as demonstrated by the regular failures of my imitators to triumph by this means even when I do not play the VQ?