Mictlan, Cross Breeding and Luck

[Graeme Dice]

Originally posted by moodgiesanta:
Bowlingballhead, yes, Burden of time is broken, in my opinion. It costs far too little for the extreme effects it has. It absolutely kills me, and not being an astral mage or interested in enchantment, I'm utterly screwed. So I have a couple choices:

If you ignore enchantment research, then quite frankly, you're almost asking to get bLasted by various enchantments. That's the point of the dispel spell.

1. Go out of my way at creation to take four astral and research dispel AND somehow get ahold through alchemy (at tremendous cost) enough astral pearls to dispel it. Which utterly sucks.

Dispel is enchantment 5, astral 3, not astral 4. Enchantment 4 can be reached in 10 turns from a start with no research points whatsoever. Enchantment 5 is only about 3 more turns after that. For a nation with enough research to get to Heliophagi enchantment 5 is about a three or four turn effort at the very most.

From the rest of your thread, I assume you were playing Mictlan. That means that you already have an astral 2 mage, who only needs a starshine skullcap to cast dispel whenever necessary.

A list of the nations that have at least an astral two mage, and thus have a fairly easy time to cast dispel.

Abysia, Atlantis, Pythium, Arcoscephale, Broken Empire Ermor, Marignon, R'Lyeh, Jotunheim (Utgard), Mictlan. That's 9 out of the 17 nations that can get rid of it fairly easily.

[PvK]

Yes the Mictlani commanders are wonderfully cheap (sacred, for half upkeep cost) for cannonfodder leadership and generation too (free slave spear-carriers).

PvK

Burden of Time isn't broken. It's just something that will force you to deal with it visibly instead of the invisible threat of giving an opponent a massive gem income (which is a common misconception).

Every Global Enchantment has an impact on the game if you allow it to remain unchecked. So having the ability to deal with, or counter them is something you must do even in SP. If you play the game without having the ability to deal with either letting the enchantment stick, or kicking it out/dispeling it, you are asking to be burnt.

[General Tacticus]

Originally posted by Ragnarok-X:
to General Tacticus:

With the improves crossbreeding, how many commanders are usually leading one of your main armys ? because just a few breeds usually come with MANY lesser breeds you must have several commanders. Or are you using a experienced leader with 2+ exp levels ? Because i cant figure out how to lead those bloody breeds, they allways seem to end up guarding my capital..
ty

Well, do remember that I am playing on the World map (very big) : by now I have something like 50 provinces, 500 gold income after upkeep, and I am not building troops with that gold... I have all the leaders I need.
As a general rule, I never put only one leader with my armies, even a scout or a cheap priest helps as extra insurance during battles. I'd say that right now, when I mean business, I put together 4 armies of 100-200 troops each, and each of the armies has 2 to 5 leaders... Of course, I made do with less at the start, but even on turn 2 I usually have two leaders with my armies...

[mivayan]

I dont have all that much experience with blood, but I know the battlefield spells are not the point. The summons are... horde from hell, bind ice devil for example. And you can get a LOT more blood slaves than other gems if you have lots of blood hunters.

[Chris Byler]

Originally posted by PvK:
Yes the Mictlani commanders are wonderfully cheap (sacred, for half upkeep cost) for cannonfodder leadership and generation too (free slave spear-carriers).

PvK

True. Too bad they have nothing half decent to lead. It would be nice if the Slaves could distract your opponent's troops while your good troops hit him in the flank or rear - but Mictlan doesn't HAVE any good troops.

I'm particularly disappointed by the Jaguar Warriors - they seem like a good idea, but in practice, they rarely even survive the first hit to become were jaguars, and almost never survive more than one round in were jaguar form. They have bad defense, worse protection and low hit points - for 20 gold!

Maybe if Mictlan had a god that could get to Air 6+, Water 9 for reasonable cost, Jaguar Warriors could survive for more than one or two rounds - but who wants to invest heavily in Water magic while taking a heat scale (or at all, for that matter)? And in any case, Mictlan has no troops whatsoever that can damage prot 15+ without a strong Blood blessing. They need falchions, or glaives, or tridents, or SOMETHING that can damage a Hoplite. Why don't they have some of the copper-armored warriors using Obsidian Swords? It wouldn't be much, but a Mictlan Warrior with copper armor, javelin, and Obsidian Sword instead of spear would be worth making.

I've seen armies of 100+ Mictlan troops (ok, that's counting the slaves, but still, 500+ gold worth of actual troops) get routed by ten Heavy Cavalry, and kill only 1, maybe 2 of them. Slings, javelins and spears just aren't going to cut it against Prot 19 - but if you can't come up with something against HI and HC even in small numbers, you can't even expand against low indy strengths, unless you luck out on the types of indies.

Ultra-slow expansion (take one province, spend 3-4 turns making another army because the first one was wiped out in the battle, repeat) is not a good way to build up a blood economy (already more difficult in Dom II than it was in Dom I).

To make Mictlan a bit more playable without taking away too much from their uniqueness:
* Lower the cost of the 4 main priests. Mictlan relies heavily on its priests and they are fantastically expensive. Compare the Theurg, Witch Hunter, and Avalon witches for example - all of which come from nations with average or above average military units.
* Warriors with Obsidian Swords in addition to the spear-carrying ones. Great Clubs (like the ones shamblers and trolls use, don't those have about 7 damage?) would be nice too, without breaking the low tech theme.
* Jaguar Warriors need higher skills, especially defense, to have any chance of being useful. Even against an army with no missiles they die very quickly.
* A national summon that is a cheap demon that can be summoned for 1 blood/1 slave, like DF Marignon's Harlequin (not necessarily flying though - something like a weaker Spine Devil would be good too). The current pre-researched summons are OK, but costs and requirements are too high to allow them to be used in early expansion.
* If Mictlan is going to be stuck with very weak, extremely vulnerable troops, at least let them have a lot of them. More starting troops (at least 50) and lower gold costs on the troops they do have (6 for the no-armor, 7 for the light armor and 8 for the copper armor - maybe 11-12 for feathered warriors).

[ywl]

Originally posted by tinkthank:
What is so great or even good about the Blood path? I mean this honestly, I don't get it. All the spells require many slaves (which usually get burnt by their own Abyssian owners in the times I have tried it), and I just don't see them doing much bang for the buck. Can someone list some of their more favorite spells (and favorite circumstances to use them in)?

Blood is not to be used on the battlefield though Sabbath Master and Slave are not bad.

All the summons from Blood is ultra-powerful after Level 3. Around ten devils (blood 3) can usually hold up an army of several times its size. Storm Deomns (blood 4) can fly and attack even in storm. Horde from Hell (blood 5) can strike anywhere and gives you a flying commander afterwards. Ice Devils (blood 5), Archdevils (blood 6) are all god-like uberunits. And there are even higher summons.

Well, you got the idea yet ?

[Bowlingballhead]

Summons are definitely the point of blood magic. Don't let the first couple of summons fool you - fiends and spine devils are not that tough, and bone devils are easily dispelled. It's when you get to third and fourth level that blood magic begins paying off. Devils and demon knights are cheap to summon, the former are powerful units, and the latter dominate a battlefield. I've sent eight demon knights up against twenty black knights, and won. Four or five demon knights will roll over independents.

And blood magic gets some stunningly forgings, too. Probably more items to enhance blood skill than any other magic discipline. Blood stones. The dreaded soul contracts. Slave collars.

And you can cast Send Horror. I haven't gotten to do that yet, but I understand it works now, and I'm... wholly impressed by the power of the horrors I've run into.

[moodgiesanta]

I'm playing another game, with Turmoil 3, Sloth 3, Luck 3, Magic 3 (quite the opposite of the Drain 3) and Growth 3, along with healthy blood and fire magic for my Blood Fountain pretender. It is working a lot better. For weaker troops, you can send in a buffer army of slaves and weak cross-breeds to take damage while your incredibly cheap slingmen rip apart the infantry. For tougher enemies, the summons work very well. Luck 3 also almost assures you of sometime getting their undead hero, which lets you summon a free army of undead. The growth assures your blood economy of being good in your capital, which is vital when your pretender can't move. Magic 3 gets me a veritable army of extremely cheap (and sacred) researchers at 80 a pop in the low level priests that also can command a decent amount of troops.

My complaints against Burden of Time weren't that valid. I'd completely forgotten about the astral priests Mictlan has. My complaint should have read like "players who kinda suck like me do poorly against Burden of Time."

[PvK]

Originally posted by Chris Byler:

quote:

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Originally posted by PvK:
Yes the Mictlani commanders are wonderfully cheap (sacred, for half upkeep cost) for cannonfodder leadership and generation too (free slave spear-carriers).

PvK

True. Too bad they have nothing half decent to lead. It would be nice if the Slaves could distract your opponent's troops while your good troops hit him in the flank or rear - but Mictlan doesn't HAVE any good troops.

---

I use blessed/cheap Sun Warriors (85% maintenance cost of an indy HI) as my main army body. Slaves on distraction detail with a feathered warrior or two with them to keep them in the field longer. No really good troops to hit flank and rear? Meet my blessed Eagle Warriors, fiends of darkness, and/or my growing horde of Devils led by an item-bedecked heroic devil commander.

I'm particularly disappointed by the Jaguar Warriors - they seem like a good idea, but in practice, they rarely even survive the first hit to become were jaguars, and almost never survive more than one round in were jaguar form. They have bad defense, worse protection and low hit points - for 20 gold!

I don't like the Jaguar Warriors that much, but I might if I tailored my blessings for them. I prefer Sun Warriors and Eagle Warriors, but even the 20-gold Jags are only as expensive to maintain as a normal indy HI.

Maybe if Mictlan had a god that could get to Air 6+, Water 9 for reasonable cost, Jaguar Warriors could survive for more than one or two rounds - but who wants to invest heavily in Water magic while taking a heat scale (or at all, for that matter)? And in any case, Mictlan has no troops whatsoever that can damage prot 15+ without a strong Blood blessing. They need falchions, or glaives, or tridents, or SOMETHING that can damage a Hoplite. Why don't they have some of the copper-armored warriors using Obsidian Swords? It wouldn't be much, but a Mictlan Warrior with copper armor, javelin, and Obsidian Sword instead of spear would be worth making.

Fair point, and a good idea. I've been doing fine (though against the AI) with what I've been up to, though. I haven't had to try to fight many well-armored troops without using demons. Blood blessing does increase strength (IIRC - I know my blessed units get a good strength bonus from something) which does give harder-hitting blessed units.

I've seen armies of 100+ Mictlan troops (ok, that's counting the slaves, but still, 500+ gold worth of actual troops) get routed by ten Heavy Cavalry, and kill only 1, maybe 2 of them. Slings, javelins and spears just aren't going to cut it against Prot 19 - but if you can't come up with something against HI and HC even in small numbers, you can't even expand against low indy strengths, unless you luck out on the types of indies.

I managed to beat indies pretty easily, by having blessed Eagle Warriors and Fiends fly into the enemy rear and panic them and/or wipe out their commanders.

Ultra-slow expansion (take one province, spend 3-4 turns making another army because the first one was wiped out in the battle, repeat) is not a good way to build up a blood economy (already more difficult in Dom II than it was in Dom I).

Was not a problem for me, as I just mentioned. What kept me in my corner was C'tis and Pangaea attacking me at the same time early in the game, having no good indy provinces nearby, and being unwilling to get my main army diseased by miasma as I figured out what the working techniques were for Mictlan.

As mentioned before, Mictlan is tricky but not weak. It is definitely not Ulm, nor is it Arco. Yes it doesn't work to just hire its non-sacred HI and march it directly forward, but other things can work.

To make Mictlan a bit more playable without taking away too much from their uniqueness:
* Lower the cost of the 4 main priests. Mictlan relies heavily on its priests and they are fantastically expensive. Compare the Theurg, Witch Hunter, and Avalon witches for example - all of which come from nations with average or above average military units.

Yes the priests are very expensive. However, I'm not sure that isn't intended as a balance.

* Warriors with Obsidian Swords in addition to the spear-carrying ones. Great Clubs (like the ones shamblers and trolls use, don't those have about 7 damage?) would be nice too, without breaking the low tech theme.

Sounds good to me!

* Jaguar Warriors need higher skills, especially defense, to have any chance of being useful. Even against an army with no missiles they die very quickly.

Yes, I haven't been tempted to use them, though I haven't analyzed them and the bless possibilities. Seems like they would be better if they were more skilled (and they could be more expensive). Maybe if they were base-skill (before equipment) Attack-11/Defense-13 and cost say 25... or whatever they "should" cost at that skill level.

* A national summon that is a cheap demon that can be summoned for 1 blood/1 slave, like DF Marignon's Harlequin (not necessarily flying though - something like a weaker Spine Devil would be good too). The current pre-researched summons are OK, but costs and requirements are too high to allow them to be used in early expansion.

I'd like to see that sort of addition, too.

Stil, I found 2-4 fiends combined with blessed Eagle Warriors, and some standard Mictlan troops and slaves to feint, was effective defeating indies in the early game (available by turn 2-3).

* If Mictlan is going to be stuck with very weak, extremely vulnerable troops, at least let them have a lot of them. More starting troops (at least 50) and lower gold costs on the troops they do have (6 for the no-armor, 7 for the light armor and 8 for the copper armor - maybe 11-12 for feathered warriors).

More starting troops would be welcome. Compared to other Dominions troops though, they are pretty cheap (9, or 15/17/20 sacred), considering a lot of them are sacred (half maintenance), including the cheapo commander and priests.

I do agree with your costs, but only in the context that ALL Dominions light/medium infantry seems to be ineffective for the cost. So I would apply the same kind of cost reductions to all light/medium infantry in the game, AND/OR change the game mechanics to make them better at avoiding getting killed by heavy forces, AND/OR change the AI so that light/medium troops tend to avoid heavy enemy mobs and sneak around to rear or effectively skirmish or something. That is, I think the balance comment applies to all light troops in the game.

PvK