OT:splendid WWII movie you'll never see:(

[oleg]

Originally posted by Thermodyne:
... To your first point, how would four destroyers have made a difference? The corvettes were little more than MTB’s without the torpedoes, and I doubt they could have survived long enough to even ram the Terpitz...

Frankly, i don't know. i don't know whether Tirpitz will indeed attack the convoy. But I am very sure that if escorts stay with convoy, they would protect merchant ships from Luftwaffe and Kringsmarine. There would be no "Bloody Sunday of July 5", with all cruisers and destroyers around.

History does not know "if", but in my book, Royal Navy behaved like cowards. They left helpless concorts to the mercy of mercyless foe. It is like escorting a girl to the dark alley and then runing away at the first suspitios sound in the bushes.

Rightly or wrongly but - I red once again the history of malta convoys and decided not to smear the reputation of the honorable institution on the basis of action of few scoundrels.

[ February 14, 2004, 03:05: Message edited by: oleg ]

[PvK]

In Seattle anyway, we have a few theatres which do show foreign films, we have an annual international film festival, and of course there are video stores (Scarecrow is good). I realize that foreign pickings are often woefully slim, while there's abundant Hollydreck, but I thought maybe you meant something else.

PvK

[Taz-in-Space]

I for one would like to see more foreign films in US cinemas. I'm sure that there are many fine films that are missed by both sides.

As to the conduct of the WWII militaries and if they could have done better, sure they could have. BUT THAT IS HINDSIGHT!

What was done by ALL sides during that awful mess was incredible.

Here in the US, few know what the Russian people had to endure. The statistics I saw were amazing to me many years ago when I studied it.

I remember reading that the losses of men on the 'Eastern Front' were:
20 Million Russians and 2.5 Million Germans.
An amazing 8-1 ratio! This is over the whole war.
Think of what the ratio had to be at the start.
And the Germans LOST...

How did the Russians do it? Yes, they had help; but largely they DID fight with their own equipment. One place I wouldn't have liked to be was in the Russian infantry during 1941-1943.

IMO not enough note was made about the Eastern Front land war in the West. Just as I'm sure not much notice is shown in USSR about the Bombing campaign waged in the West.

You tend to ignore what you haven't experianced.
Simple human nature...

[Unknown_Enemy]

Originally posted by Taz-in-Space:
I for one would like to see more foreign films in US cinemas. I'm sure that there are many fine films that are missed by both sides.

As to the conduct of the WWII militaries and if they could have done better, sure they could have. BUT THAT IS HINDSIGHT!

What was done by ALL sides during that awful mess was incredible.

Here in the US, few know what the Russian people had to endure. The statistics I saw were amazing to me many years ago when I studied it.

I remember reading that the losses of men on the 'Eastern Front' were:
20 Million Russians and 2.5 Million Germans.
An amazing 8-1 ratio! This is over the whole war.
Think of what the ratio had to be at the start.
And the Germans LOST...

How did the Russians do it? Yes, they had help; but largely they DID fight with their own equipment. One place I wouldn't have liked to be was in the Russian infantry during 1941-1943.

IMO not enough note was made about the Eastern Front land war in the West. Just as I'm sure not much notice is shown in USSR about the Bombing campaign waged in the West.

You tend to ignore what you haven't experianced.
Simple human nature...

There is a problem with your numbers.
You put in it only the germans casualties, but dont get in all other nationalities (european volonteers, russians, italians) who came in URSS to fight versus communism.

From what I remember of "History of WW2" from Liddle Hart there was around 6 millions dead soldiers on the axis side. Remember until the very Last days of WW2, there was 1 million "russian" soldiers fighting on the side of germany.

[Aiken]

Originally posted by Unknown_Enemy:
There is a problem with your numbers.
You put in it only the germans casualties, but dont get in all other nationalities (european volonteers, russians, italians) who came in URSS to fight versus communism.

From what I remember of "History of WW2" from Liddle Hart there was around 6 millions dead soldiers on the axis side. Remember until the very Last days of WW2, there was 1 million "russian" soldiers fighting on the side of germany.

Not quite right.
Irretrievable human casualties of german allied armies in german-soviet battle-front (22.6.1941-9.5.1945):
Irretrievable casualties: 1468145.
|-Dead: 668163
|-Was taken prisoner: 799982
|- Retuned to home: 662229
Counted countries: Hungary, Italy, Romania, Finland, Slovakia.
You may check it yourself at http://www.soldat.ru/doc/casualties/...er5_13_11.html using babelfish.

[Unknown_Enemy]

Originally posted by aiken:

quote:

---

Originally posted by The Frans:
Hi,

Thanks that we may check it ourselves, but to be honnest. My russin isn't that good lately

Intimidator (Frans)

http://babelfish.altavista.com/babel...p=ru_en&tt=url

Babelfish is really useful resource

---

I cannot find yet data about the number of axis casualties on eastern from, but for germany it amounted more to the 3 500 000.

http://www.worldhistory.com/wiki/W/World-War-II.htm

Problem is, I cannot find the bielo-russian / georgians casualties while fighting on the german side, but it was massive but not really fit on the official history.

(no punt intended, just history)

[Aiken]

Originally posted by Unknown_Enemy:
I cannot find yet data about the number of axis casualties on eastern from, but for germany it amounted more to the 3 500 000.

http://www.worldhistory.com/wiki/W/World-War-II.htm

Problem is, I cannot find the bielo-russian / georgians casualties while fighting on the german side, but it was massive but not really fit on the official history.

(no punt intended, just history)

Sorry for that link I provided. For some reason babelfish translate only 1/3 of document.
About German casualties: Eastern Front (22.6.1941-9.5.1945)
Total: 7181.1 thousands
|-Dead: 3604.8
|-Was taken prisoner: 3576.3
+ 1 591 125 taken prisoner after 9.5.1941 so total casualties = 8772,2 thousands.

Searching for information about national legions

Aha. 25000 Georgians - part of Turkic Legion.
70000 Byelorussians - most of them (47000) served as "Hilfswillige" (voluntary assistant) in occupied territories.
Where was no massive deaths amongst them, most part of all legioners gave up.

[ February 14, 2004, 21:11: Message edited by: aiken ]

[The Frans]

Hi,

Thanks that we may check it ourselves, but to be honnest. My russin isn't that good lately

But without kidding, very interesting discussion.

I agree with unknown Enemy, It is very hard to understand or imagine what the russian people had to endure.

I for myself life in the Netherlands (west of germany) That country was overrun by the Nazi's in only 4 days. And even I could see the damage they left, when I was 10 years old (35 years after the war ended)

So imagine how great the russian damage and disaster must be after 3 or 4 years of full scale war.

Intimidator (Frans)

[Aiken]

Originally posted by The Frans:
Hi,

Thanks that we may check it ourselves, but to be honnest. My russin isn't that good lately

Intimidator (Frans)

http://babelfish.altavista.com/babel...p=ru_en&tt=url

Babelfish is really useful resource

[oleg]

...
20 Million Russians and 2.5 Million Germans.
An amazing 8-1 ratio! This is over the whole war.
Think of what the ratio had to be at the start.
And the Germans LOST...

.. [/QB]

20 Millions is an estimate of total casualties, including civilians. In Leningrad alone 900 000 civilians died during the siege because of hunger and cold. Many other ciites were bombed to 90% when bothe armies went back anf forth. For example, civilian casulties in Stalingrad are estimated 200 000. No one know for sure, a lot of people were evacuated but not all.