Important Math Question

[Grandpa Kim]

Okay, I give up. If you insist on putting limits to infinity I am unable to present a coherent argument. All I will say is you haven't thought it through.

ie: Where does that degraded photon energy go?
How do you know infinite space is possible without infinite time?

This is a great thought exercise for expanding your personal universe. Think about the ramifications of infinity long enough and it begins to collapse like a house of cards. Anything and everything is possible-- no, not possible but has occurred an infinite number of times.
So maybe the universe is infinite.

But I don't believe it. The universe is finite.

[Phoenix-D]

Originally posted by Grandpa Kim:
Okay, I give up. If you insist on putting limits to infinity I am unable to present a coherent argument. All I will say is you haven't thought it through.

As it happens, I'm not putting limits on. You're just disregarding the space argument..

ie: Where does that degraded photon energy go?
How do you know infinite space is possible without infinite time?

The photon energy is lost, or absorbed. Some fraction is sent on, which then hits something else and repeats the process. Infinite number of photons..infinite number of barriers. And at any given time, only a finite number of those photons are actually arriving at any given point.

This is a great thought exercise for expanding your personal universe. Think about the ramifications of infinity long enough and it begins to collapse like a house of cards. Anything and everything is possible-- no, not possible but has occurred an infinite number of times.
So maybe the universe is infinite.

But I don't believe it. The universe is finite.

Try this thought exericise then. If the universe is finite- what happens when you reach the edge? I'd have an easier time beliving that -space- is infinite, even if matter isn't.

EDIT: word-level typos.

[ November 01, 2003, 23:07: Message edited by: Phoenix-D ]

[narf poit chez BOOM]

i didn't say anything about infinite time, however, i do beleive time is infinite to. and i fail to see any ramifications of infinite time on my statement, nor do i see how my statement limits infinity.

Phoenix-D, would enough photons bump into each other for that to be how photons might degrade?

[Suicide Junkie]

Try this thought exericise then. If the universe is finite- what happens when you reach the edge? I'd have an easier time beliving that -space- is infinite, even if matter isn't.

The same way that the Earth is finite in size, but there is no edge to fall off of.

[narf poit chez BOOM]

yes, but there's an edge to launch a rocket off of.

[Jack Simth]

Originally posted by Phoenix-D:
Photons aren't infinite, and with every step you loose energy.

Actually, energy never really goes away - it changes form (occasionally to matter), it goes to a different density over a different volume, but so far, every time someone somewhere has found a contradiction to that, it is later found that what was happening was a conVersion to a previously unrecognized form of energy.

[deccan]

This sounds like a good time to bring up the:

Cosmology FAQ

One argument against an infinite universe is that the universe seems to be cooling, i.e. the cosmic background radiation is growing weaker over time. If the universe is truly infinite, with an infinite number of stars, it seems that the universe will only get hotter over time.

[deccan]

Originally posted by Phoenix-D:
The photon energy is lost, or absorbed. Some fraction is sent on, which then hits something else and repeats the process. Infinite number of photons..infinite number of barriers. And at any given time, only a finite number of those photons are actually arriving at any given point.

As Jack pointed out, the energy cannot be destroyed. Given enough time, anything that blocks and absorbs those photons will eventually re-radiate it out again.

[DavidG]

Originally posted by narf poit chez BOOM:
if the universe is infinite in size, the distance between us and any galaxy will still not be infinite.

If the distance between us and any galaxy is not infinite then clearly the universe is not infinite in size.

[Phoenix-D]

Originally posted by DavidG:

quote:

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Originally posted by narf poit chez BOOM:
if the universe is infinite in size, the distance between us and any galaxy will still not be infinite.

If the distance between us and any galaxy is not infinite then clearly the universe is not infinite in size.

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Err, not exactly. A universe being infinite in size doesn't preclude two things from being next to each other.

re: photon energy: true. The background actualy -cooling- probably precludes an infinite universe; it'd have to be either constant or increasing (unless all the non-visible stars are pulsing at the same time, but that is er, not likely).