MP: Noobs vs. Vets III: Revolution, MA, CBM. Game Over. Noobs Triumph!

[Septimius Severus]

Unoptimized has picked Shinuyama, we now await a final decision on placement and the vet team needs to PM me their list of nations.

We've a new noob alternate, Kietsensei.

[namad]

The 2nd version gives the noob team like four times as many uncontested provinces as the vet team in my estimation(didn't count). According to our counting the first version gives the noob team about 30uncontested land provinces to the vets 20or so while also giving the noobs much much better access to the sea provinces.


obviously I vote for the 1st version as it's what i suggested to thedemon on irc... also the 1st version has as was mentioned... fairly reduced risk of teammate domkills. Although I haven't personally verified the distances and neighboring counts of all the provinces I've checked many of them in this regard.

[Kietsensei]

Hello everyone,

I am looking forward to join the team. I hope there will be a spot to fill before the game start Otherwise I am ready to sub anyone in the noob team!

[Septimius Severus]

If you mean uncontested, as in more provinces in closer proximity to noob caps, we must remember that the noobs have twice as many players and require twice as much space to expand, and that might nullified by the noobs teams likely slower expansion rate.

I must say though, TheDemons two proposals look good at first glance, I must confer with my fellows and take a closer look at the map. Good work by all.

Version 1 puts more noobs in proximity to the water and there seems to be more space between friend and foe (one of my objectives). However version 2 does seem to follow the contours of the left/right symetry better and does seem to provide more room for noob expansion.

My objectives for placement are btw:

1. Maximum distance between friend and foe.
2. Equi-distant placement of starting locations.
3. Noob team can bring all 12 nation's land forces to bear on the vets.

Noobs, take a look at those two suggestions by TheDemon and let me know what you think. Thanks.

[Lavaere]

Here is a wild suggestion for the last game...
we don't go with preset but instead just place 18 starts. and have it random who gets what

[Hoplosternum]

Originally Posted by Septimius Severus

My objectives for placement are btw:

1. Maximum distance between friend and foe.
2. Equi-distant placement of starting locations.
3. Noob team can bring all 12 nation's land forces to bear on the vets.

Well if those are the objectives then we would be better off with a random map and three parallel lines of Noobs / Vets / Noobs. Like I suggested earlier

I don't really see what the wrap around or the large amount of sea in Cleveland's (otherwise excellent) map adds to this game. As long as you don't give the edge powers large safe hinterlands behind I don't think the wrap around will be an issue here as in a normal mp game where it favours those powers at the edge.

If the worry is my square map suggestion has ally dom kill issues then just make the map not square. A roughly 15*24 (= 360 provs) would give more space between the Capitals in each row. And you could zig zag the rows of Capitals slightly if you are really concerned.

If you look at Demon's central version it is similar to what I propose but by using Cleveland's map some of the Noobs are very close to the Vets at the start and there is very little that can be done to prevent this if you want all enemies to have easy direct access to each other (if you didn't you just have Noobs hidden behind other Noobs - but I don't think this is very desireable.

We are already going to have to get someone to manually place the starting position (unless we adopt Lavaere's proposal). So why not just use a random map? It really is very simple to do

I would post some examples but don't know how to get a decent screenshot of the map. How are people doing that

[TwoBits]

Hm, TheDemon's first 'revised' map seems possible, but as Hoplosternum mentions, the Noobs at the 'corners' of the crescents are much closer to vets than others.

Was there a problem with having the 4 center vets in a diamond formation like this?:

-----v
-----v
---v---v
-----v
-----v

Is there a dominion-fratricide issue with that set-up? Matched with that, the noob-crescent could be modified, with the 2nd and 5th noobs inset a little from the coast, sort of fitting slightly into the 'pockets' of the vet's diamond. Crap, did that make any sense?

----n---v---n----
-----------------
--------v--------
----n-------n----
-----------------
n---------------n
-----v-----v-----
n---------------n
-----------------
---n---------n---
--------v--------
-----------------
---n----v----n---

Well, that's a very, very rough and ugly approximation of what I'm talking about. I wish I was better and things graphical and computery, but I'm pretty much no better than a trained monkey at these things


Um, so why not a random rectangular map, as per Hoplo's suggestion?

[Ironhawk]

Out of curiousity: why are the noobs so against having a backfield player? Is it that the boredom of that position outweighs its value, for you?

[TwoBits]

Originally Posted by Ironhawk

Out of curiousity: why are the noobs so against having a backfield player? Is it that the boredom of that position outweighs its value, for you?

Well, I think that's part of it, but only a small part. To have a certain amount of players to accept a 'support' role would always be difficult, but I think it would be especially so in a team of "Noobs", who, for the most part, have never played together, and, by definition, lack experience.

I mean, that kind of willing team sacrifice would be the mark of, well, a veteran player, folks who have played a lot, interacted a lot, and know each other reasonably well.

That's quite hard for us Noobs to coordinate. Plus, there are some valid strategic concerns, like if you have 4 Noobs in the "backfield", the odds at the point of conflict (the "front" as it were) are much reduced, from 2-1 to 3-2.

Yeah, theoretically the Noobs could make that up, and then some, with whatever the "backfield" nations were producing, but that's kind of hard to coordinate. I suppose if you gave us noobs a couple of months or so(!!!), after the map and all the races have been chosen, to get to know each other, maybe game out a bunch of scenarios, we might be OK with such a set-up

In the absence of that, I think we need to go with our strength - 2-1 odds, and press that advantage from the get-go.

That's how it seems to look to me (and I did volunteer for a support role when I joined this game).

[Septimius Severus]

Originally Posted by Lavaere

Here is a wild suggestion for the last game...
we don't go with preset but instead just place 18 starts. and have it random who gets what

Just to clarify, I was planning on placing 18 starts anyway so it is just a matter of where. I'll have to check the map/mod manual but I believe specstart will overide the no-start terrain masks that Cleveland has set up for most of the provinces, or I can just uncheck em in the editor. If TheDemon's turn out to be the ones already pre-set, hey that is fine too and makes it even more unbiased and less likely that an error in judgement will be made.

As in TheDemon's screenshots, both teams will know all the start locations (something which is easy enough to guess or locate via scouting). But, and here is the beauty, each team will have discretion as to which of their nations goes where. The start locations being public knowledge, removes any possiblity of partiality and thus the need for a third pary. And with the ability to decide which of the alloted starting locations your team's nations will reside in each team will have a measure of control. Everyone is happy!

True, following Hoplo's idea (see thumbnail below) we could eliminate water provinces entirely and create a random rectangular map, and place noobs in parallel lines opposing a center line of vets. This would give us more space between the opposing lines and thus much more time before hostilities break out. However, the distribution of provinces just looks uneven and unqual to me. Can starts be placed evenly and equally distant throughout such a map as easily as with Cleveland's? Could we then get a third party to place starts that would satify both teams? How much time do you guys want to spend with this? Don't we want some water for strategic options, certain nations? And it just looks terrible. I suppose a perfect grid if possible would be what I'd want, but that would look even worse.

I think we should stick with Planet Rorschach, check TheDemon's placement bias (there won't be any except Cleveland's if some or all of them are the preset ones), and if desired enact an NAP. But I will go the way of the majority if I deem it will move us along faster and solve most of the problems.