WinSP MBT: Das Reich

[MarkSheppard]

Looking at the encyclopedia now, Monty; and very nice.

Random thought -- do you have a rough idea of how German technology in various areas developed from the late 1940s in your timeline?

[MarkSheppard]

One area I'm curious about is, what's the post-War German Navy?

I assume some variation of the Z-Plan is completed in this universe; and that the resultant German fleet is semi-modernized post-war with modern technologies in the same way that the US Navy and Soviet Navy modernized their WWII and immediate post war heavy warships with missile technologies.

So figure:

Bismarck (25 years old in August 1965)
Tirpitz (25 years old in February 1966)
Friedrich der Grosse (H-39 Schlachtschiff H) (commissioned Sep 1943, 25 years old Aug 1968)
Hindenburg (H-39 Schlachtschiff J) (commissioned Nov 1943, 25 years old Oct 1968)
Goeben (H-39 Schlachtschiff K) (commissioned Feb 1944, 25 years old Feb 1969)

Schl. H and J were actually laid down in 1939, while K was also ordered in 1939.

But beyond that, I can't see a rationale for major battleship construction, as air power will quickly become apparent as the new dominant force at sea.

So I figure that in the 1950s, the Germans BBGize the three newest ships, while keeping Bismarck and Tirpitz as "expendable" shore bombardment ships.

1950s conversions were studied by the US for the Iowas, and the French for the Jean Bart. Essentially what was proposed was that half the main armament was stripped and replaced with a new superstructure accommodating the new missile directors and launchers.

But by the mid 1960s, all of the ships are going to be approaching 25 years old; about the same age for example, a World War I battleship commissioned 1916 would have been in 1941; and this means their steam plants would be old and creaky.

A big reason the battleships stayed on for so long in the US in mothballs was because of the USMC and their requirement for heavy naval gun support -- are the German Marines going to have that political influence?

[RecruitMonty]

I assume some variation of the Z-Plan is completed in this universe; and that the resultant German fleet is semi-modernized post-war with modern technologies in the same way that the US Navy and Soviet Navy modernized their WWII and immediate post war heavy warships with missile technologies.

Correct. Although the Kriegsmarine was just as much about prestige as it was about projecting German naval power onto the world's oceans (irl: the North-Atlantic, Med. etc), so I envisaged larger ships staying on as long as possible (with major over-hauls of the inner workings and the weapons' systems) or being replaced with newer, more modern, models.

The Kriegsmarine (kaiserliche Marine if you are playing with the Kaiserreich set up) serves two primary functions within this project: One, is protecting the Reich's maritime borders; the other is facilitating the projection of the Reich's military power beyond its borders (e.g. in the event of another major conflagration).

Like any major navy it has all the kit needed to accomplish both these tasks and with the better part of European industry at its disposal it also has this kit in abundance.

Now, I like big guns, and I like the idea of being able to carry out amphibious operations with some heavy naval support at one's disposal - whether landing off the coast of North America or in the Persian Gulf - so the OOB reflects this. Those who would prefer using smaller calibre naval support into the current decade (as in real life) can use the lighter naval support options (the pics are not definitive).

are the German Marines going to have that political influence?

In a word, yes. Being one of the spearheads in any invasion/police action (the other being the air-landing forces available to the Luftwaffe) where amphibious operations are concerned it has a fair amount of clout. Let us just say that the events in the pacific in these time lines were closely monitored and lessons were learned .

[RecruitMonty]

What would you like to know?

If you take a look at OOB44, for instance, you will note that the air assets are mostly VTOL technologies around the 1960s onwards. These aircraft are supposed to represent likely aircraft-carrier / colonial Fliegerhorst load outs.

In OOB35, a more conventional Luftwaffe can be found: Jabos, Bombers and Strategic Bombers.

The helicopters in both are a mish-mash of extrapolations (based on existing models from the US and USSR) and real-world German projects (some completed up to and incl. the prototype phase).

[MarkSheppard]

Just how complete was the III Reich's victory in Continental Europe in the mid 1940s? Was the USSR forced to the negotiating table and severely reduced in power by the capture of Moscow and the death of Stalin in the turmoil following Moscow's fall?

Reason I ask is if the USSR is still an active serious going concern, it has a lot of influence on future post-war AFV design; through the IS series of heavy tanks and the T-44/54 AFV lineage.

If however, the USSR is a puppeted shell of itself, then a lot of the pressure for product improvement is lost globally in AFV design.

[RecruitMonty]

Just how complete was the III Reich's victory in Continental Europe in the mid 1940s?

That is kind of up to the end-users, really. Why start placing constraints on people's imaginations?

It could be anything from a border that starts where the Ukraine and Belarus end all the way up to and including the Urals or along the Volga for that matter if you'd prefer something in between.

I prefer the border to be at the Urals.

For the sake of playability, wherever that border may lay the USSR (and the communist block) has still to be a viable opponent.

[Warhero]

Thanks for all participants about great mod. Especially icons are great (and Germany flag too). Installing was big job but worth of it...

Warhero

[RecruitMonty]

I wonder how many people have downloaded so far .

Maybe there is a way of finding out.

[RecruitMonty]

Originally Posted by MarkSheppard

One area I'm curious about is, what's the post-War German Navy?

I assume some variation of the Z-Plan is completed in this universe; and that the resultant German fleet is semi-modernized post-war with modern technologies in the same way that the US Navy and Soviet Navy modernized their WWII and immediate post war heavy warships with missile technologies.

So figure:

Bismarck (25 years old in August 1965)
Tirpitz (25 years old in February 1966)
Friedrich der Grosse (H-39 Schlachtschiff H) (commissioned Sep 1943, 25 years old Aug 1968)
Hindenburg (H-39 Schlachtschiff J) (commissioned Nov 1943, 25 years old Oct 1968)
Goeben (H-39 Schlachtschiff K) (commissioned Feb 1944, 25 years old Feb 1969)

Schl. H and J were actually laid down in 1939, while K was also ordered in 1939.

But beyond that, I can't see a rationale for major battleship construction, as air power will quickly become apparent as the new dominant force at sea.

So I figure that in the 1950s, the Germans BBGize the three newest ships, while keeping Bismarck and Tirpitz as "expendable" shore bombardment ships.

1950s conversions were studied by the US for the Iowas, and the French for the Jean Bart. Essentially what was proposed was that half the main armament was stripped and replaced with a new superstructure accommodating the new missile directors and launchers.

But by the mid 1960s, all of the ships are going to be approaching 25 years old; about the same age for example, a World War I battleship commissioned 1916 would have been in 1941; and this means their steam plants would be old and creaky.

A big reason the battleships stayed on for so long in the US in mothballs was because of the USMC and their requirement for heavy naval gun support -- are the German Marines going to have that political influence?

Take a look at this: http://www.german-navy.de/kriegsmari...h/history.html

I am thinking the H39-H42 are all viable variants for the post-war Kriegsmarine. Maybe two ships in the H39 configuration, two in the 40 A and then one or two each for H40B-H42. The H43 and 44 are just too monstrous. What do you say?

This website was one of my sources.

Take a look at the carriers.

[MarkSheppard]

Originally Posted by RecruitMonty

I wonder how many people have downloaded so far .

Maybe there is a way of finding out.

I can help with that (at least partially).

My website stats says that DAS REICH's url has been hit 20 times and about 1.55 GB of data have been downloaded; at 120~ MB that's about 12 people. (Subtract one for a self-test I did).