MP: Noobs vs. Vets III: Revolution, MA, CBM. Game Over. Noobs Triumph!

[atul]

I'm so rooting for Cleveland's suggestion, it beautifully solves the problem in vet team in the middle, i.e. the water being left behind noobs. Exact positions can be fiddled with, but thus far I'd say it's the best suggestion.

I see a fatal flaw in TwoBit's suggestion, the crescent noob position is really weak in some regards. Rather wouldn't see that one.

[chrispedersen]

Your current setup gives the vets a huge advantage. I don't say you should alter it necessarily, but everyone should be aware of it.

A vet sea capable nation, like agartha or ermor has central access to water, a huge number of water provinces. Newb nations, even if sea capable would have vastly diminished access.

I would suggest using dead seas, giving virtually no advantage to owning those territories. (no recruitables, no income, no resources, no sites).

[Raiel]

Originally Posted by chrispedersen

Your current setup gives the vets a huge advantage. I don't say you should alter it necessarily, but everyone should be aware of it.

A vet sea capable nation, like agartha or ermor has central access to water, a huge number of water provinces. Newb nations, even if sea capable would have vastly diminished access.

I would suggest using dead seas, giving virtually no advantage to owning those territories. (no recruitables, no income, no resources, no sites).

This is one of the reasons I prefer TwoBits' suggestion.

The setup suggested by cleveland allows the vets to expand toward us, stifling our expansion, while saving that huge circle of uncontestable provinces for later.

TwoBits' suggestion requires/allows the vets to decide how to pursue this war rather than setting them up for an obvious approach.

Frankly, I suspect the noobs would be better served to set up like this:

---N
----
----N
-----
-N---N
-----
----N
----
---N

With a mirrored approach on the right side of the island. But that would hand us the HUGE backyard I just belly-ached about the vets having...

[atul]

Originally Posted by chrispedersen

A vet sea capable nation, like agartha or ermor has central access to water, a huge number of water provinces. Newb nations, even if sea capable would have vastly diminished access.

Excuse me, but I was wondering...

Wasn't skill difference between teams like, the point of the game? Hence the 2-to-1 outnumbering?

And still, putting up a noob nation distribution with far-away points is a bad idea. "Why" is left as an excercise to the reader.

[TheDemon]

Originally Posted by chrispedersen

Your current setup gives the vets a huge advantage. I don't say you should alter it necessarily, but everyone should be aware of it.

A vet sea capable nation, like agartha or ermor has central access to water, a huge number of water provinces. Newb nations, even if sea capable would have vastly diminished access.

I would suggest using dead seas, giving virtually no advantage to owning those territories. (no recruitables, no income, no resources, no sites).

That's true in a way, but what you're saying is that the vets will benefit from the sea more than the noobs because of their experience or because they're better players. In which case, isn't that the whole point? Under Cleveland's plan, both teams have equal access to the seas, and the noob team has much better access to the north/south parts which under this map have dozens of connections due to the polar cap. If the noobs aren't able to exploit or failing that raid 0-PD seas, improving their access won't help that at all.


Two-Bits suggestion is pretty good, but if the point is to balance the number of "uncontestable" provinces, then its pretty much a must that the noob team be placed in two crescents. I don't think it solves the seas problem either, the vet team still has access to the poles and we can place our amphibs there and have easy access to the oceans anyway. I can't see Raeil's suggestion being balanced for the reasons he mentioned. A formation (like a circle) that removes vet access to the seas is unbalanced because we don't get access to the seas. I don't see an easy solution to that particular issue.

[TheDemon]

How about these starts? Both teams are in semicircles, the noobs semicircles are bigger, both teams have a very small backfield. Both teams are forced to expand towards the center and towards each other. There's no weakness of a crescent formation, which is bad for the guys on the tips. I understand the less people have a position away from the front the better, but if you leave some space in between the two outer guys, your team should be able to get them to the front with some coordination. If we place all the caps in a semicircle, then you'll have too big of an uncontested area.

All I really did was adjust the starts in Cleveland's version backwards a little. The noob starts near the center appear close together but due to the prov connections they're actually somewhat separated. I included alternate starts in yellow if you want more separation between capitals.

[chrispedersen]

It seems the vets and newbs are set, so I'll back out. Thanks and good luck!

[namad]

what are the goals? what are the problems? if you don't want people fighting too soon you could always remove a line of neighboring connections between the rings... and force all combat to a) go through the middle or b) go through the sea?

or wait? what are the goals? what are the complaints? all these suggestions seem really similar? i have no idea what's really being discussed i guess... but hey i commented!

[TwoBits]

Hm, two semicircles for the Noobs leaves at least 4 players far behind the action - sure, allies can leave a 'tunnel' of territory toward the front, but that's pretty convoluted, probably causes dominion problems, and can be easy for the Vets to interdict (you can block that 'tunnel' anywhere along the length, cutting access to the front, or forcing the player to fight his way through allied territory).

The original 'hour-glass' formation is no good either, or at least it's certainly no good for the Noob in the middle of the hour-glass - he's certainly doomed right off the bat. Plus there's still the issue of Noob players stuck in the backfield.

I still think my 'linear-bulge' formation for the Vets is the most sensible way to go. It's the only set-up that gets everyone in the action without "tunneling" and other awkward strategies. And sure, the 4 Noobs at the 'horns' of the two crescents are in somewhat more vulnerable positions, but remember, they'll have teammate directly opposite the Vet they'll be facing to take some of the pressure off.

I'm not sure what people are talking about regarding the water 'poles', but if they (whatever they are) seem to be too much of an advantage for the Vets to exploit, the Vets can be deployed horizontally instead of vertically (or heck, diagonally for that matter).

[Unoptimized]

Huh, I thought I posted before, but my internet must have gone silly. Anyway, I'll happily play Shinuyama, and I'm sorry about all the delays. My return trip was slightly nightmarish.