Awestruck. New Late Age game. (Game over, Atlantis wins)

[dojango]

I think I'm ready to concede to Atlantis. It was a good game, but I was unable to leverage the new endgame units effectively against Atlantis's hordes.

[Amhazair]

After the last few turns I'm inclined to agree that I've won the game, even with sudden full cooperation of everyone else (which doesn't look like happening?) and solid play. That said, if others don't agree and feel like putting that theory to the test, I'm happy to play on as long as necessary. I've added 24h for now to give everyone a chance to chime in. (I'm not home tomorrow and might lack the internet access to check what's been said.)

[Valerius]

Originally Posted by Amhazair

After the last few turns I'm inclined to agree that I've won the game, even with sudden full cooperation of everyone else (which doesn't look like happening?) and solid play.

I doubt anyone will disagree with you. Midgard's opinion doesn't count for much but I think you've earned the win and there's no need to waste (especially your) time by playing on.

[Executor]

This is the turn you realize you've won? It was evident 15 turns ago (at least).
In any case, congrats on your win Amhazair. Luck played a huge part in it here, but doesn't it always?

[jotwebe]

Right then. One game down!

[Amhazair]

Originally Posted by Executor

This is the turn you realize you've won? It was evident 15 turns ago (at least).

I don't agree. 15 turns ago a solid and commited dogpile would (or at least should) have taken me down. No such thing materialized though, even though it should have been clear to everyone that was the way to go.

[Executor]

No. Not even a coordinated attack could have done much. Trust me, I've seen and fought through a lot of these situations and I've seen far worse nations than yours come out winner in all of them.

Let me explain and sum everything up;

Unlike any other player in the game you had a huge advatage by not having any wars at all until you attacked Midgard (due to all the AI nations (and at which point it was too late)).
You were the only water power on a map with no Rlyeh and a large amount of water provinces. Let's not mention the extra mobility this gained you on a rather choke point-y map.
You were also the far strongest player even without any wars and than especially due to that same reason (no needles expenses in gems and troops like the rest of us), being the leader in almost all categories from the start I believe.
I'm not trying to undermine your skills or effort, but there's something horribly wrong when a player reaches 50 provinces without fighting anyone, however skilled or talanted, on a map with some 16ish provinces per player.

Now, keep in mind the logistical problems the rest of us faced even if all united. Each of us could only attack a hand full of your provinces, at best, and even than there were a lot of choke point and dead ends, while you had the advantage of striking nearly any of us at any place with great mobility.

Also keep in mind that uniting every single nation is impossible under any scenario as you must well know, since at least some nation have bad blood between them. Even in the best of scenarios there is always at last someone will not only avoid the big war, but rather join the winning nation for some ludicrous reason (like ending second, or misguided belief they can stop you alone if they grab a chuck of your, now mutual, enemies, or they feel the game is lost, or revenge, etc).

Turn when you attacked Midgrad was the turn crucial turn. If Midgard, Pyth and myself had coordinated (without having to deal with internal problems) you could have been stopped, with a special emphasis on could.

[Amhazair]

Looks like I let the turn host. Should have submited my (partially completed) turn, that way I would have know if I could have taken Midgards main castle I finally decided to storm last turn. (And at what cost.)

Executor, I simply do not agree with you at all about the power of dogpiles in general. I do agree that they're often hard to pull off for the reasons you stated, especially people holding to their grudges ahead of their own self-intrest. [and I also felt pretty confident no massive dogpile was developping in this game, though it's hard to know for sure what others are talking about of course] But when a dogpile does come together, with its members actually coordonating their efforts and commited to the objective it's a truly awesome thing to behold. And that's the reason I rejected earlier claims that I had the game in the bag, not because I wasn't confident I couldn't stand against, say, any 2 nations, but that if all/most other players put aside their diferences and combined forces against the obvious, runaway leader I couldn't have stood up against all of you.

I'm glad I managed to pull off the trick of convincing you I could react to everything with "unparalelled mobility" but actually a big part of that unceratainty actually was actually lack off mobility. I had just enough mobile assets to quite quickly take the fight to anything you, Pythium and Ermor did against me, but another front, or even just more agressive play from Pythium would have meant I would have been forced to leave attacks unanswered. Or, as Calahan put it in a message to me:

Originally Posted by Calahan

Although I do have to laugh at his "striking nearly any of us at any place with great mobility" comment. Guess that's a sure sign he never seen your turn file then, as there was me constantly cursing your lack of mobility during every minute I subbed for you. I think your true achievement this game might have been to seemingly convince everyone you were uber powerful without actually fielding much in the uber powerful department.

Edit: All of the above with the caveat that just as it's possible for you to overestimate my capabilities (as I'm sure you have) I might have done the same with others of course.

[Executor]

Originally Posted by Amhazair

Edit: All of the above with the caveat that just as it's possible for you to overestimate my capabilities (as I'm sure you have) I might have done the same with others of course.

Very true this last part. Actually, I'm quite certain you did overestimate the rest of us. I was the, what; third, forth nation by power? I had absolutely nothing going on the entire game. A complete fail on my part. I imagine the rest had even less. You on the other hand, had a quite substantial amount of gems (something I'm astounded by since I site searched 5-6 paths in my lands and came out almost empty handed (all my D income for example was capital only)), which is how I measure power.

I've fought in many dogpilles, like I said, and know that losing ground, and even losing ground fast doesn't necessarily mean anything.
Even if we had managed to pull our **** together and outmaneuver you, reducing your empire size, you could have easily compensated for it with a massive AN, GoNB, or something else he had no chance of dispelling or overcasting.

Take a look at my position in MoL. I seem to be slowly losing ground but I'm also getting much more stronger. In fact, C'tis seems almost on level with me now that he's done with you though it's likely I'm as powerful as the four remaining nations together.

As for the mobility part. I find it quite laughable too, Calahan. Surely you must be joking?
If you think Atlantis had problems with mobility you should put yourself in some other nations perspective. I, for one, could attack one to two provinces a turn (not counting water provinces where you're clearly at a huge advantage, and obviously not counting provinces I lost within my lands due to raiding or whatever). Clearly, that's a serious problem since you don't have to guess much where the next attack is likely to be. (keep in mind that the raiding capabilities of the rest of us were almost non existing as well to pose any real threat on your inner provinces)
I'm sure other weren't in a better position either.

Atlantis on the other hand had the seas, all interconnected.
Even with mm1 in the water I can see Atlantis easily transporting troops trough them to find big juicy chinks of unprotected land. (I actually find it quite retarded that you have to activate "8" on your keyboard to see what's connected btw.)
Let's not mention that sea actually give you a better coverage against any counter measures we might come up with as well.
And one last thing; attacking from sea is such a marvelous advantage since you always have at least a few to up to several provinces you can attack.

You can come out and tell me what you find so silly in my opinion of this game and situation Calahan.

As for really reacting to something with great mobility, I think you misunderstood. You had nothing to react too. I think Pyth and I proved that, and we were the threat

Wow, that'a big post...

EDIT: The real problem with dogpiles is that they're usually, if ever, formed too late to matter in the end game decisive wars.

[Valerius]

I thought your raiding parties were very effective. A handful of tough troops with very high prot backed by a frozen heart casting tungalik or two made for a very cost effective force. And if they die you're just out a little gold. Definitely good value for your money.

In terms of mobility, one thing Exec may be referring to is that with water provs spread throughout the map and you controlling all of them (well, as far as I'm aware) it gave you lots of angles of attack for those raiders and more substantial forces when called for. I would imagine you also were able to make good use of the Angakok's sailing ability and ride the currents/traverse the sea.

Edit: ninja'd