MP: Noobs vs. Vets III: Revolution, MA, CBM. Game Over. Noobs Triumph!

[Unoptimized]

Hey guys! Just dropping a line to let you know I'm not dead. I'm just staying at a friend's place while I look for housing, and so its been difficult to get regular internet access/time. Anyway, I'm going to try to look at the noob forum today or tomorrow. I'll be back home on thursday, and then this can be rocked .

[Septimius Severus]

Ok, so we are waiting for Unoptimized to post his official choice so both teams can scratch it off their team list. We know what he will probably take so this will happen very shortly.

Then I need the vet team to PM me their ranked team list. I'll post both lists and the results for all too see, so that you all can see I'm not being partial and that it was done correctly. It should be fairly straightforward though, but if someone feels as though they'd prefer an independent party do the team assignments, let me know.

If you'd like to wait until map selection is finalized that is fine, just remember if you say nothing, you have no say! I will assume you don't care eitherway. Here's the link again with the top candidates so far:

http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/showp...&postcount=187

I do want to move this along as speedily as possible though, so we can get going.

While I'm inclined to toward planet Roarscach #4 (terrible speller) because it has a large cental landmass and both teams can be placed so that they can have a common front, I also like AOM Ogre. True AOM Ogre is rather large, however the actual land prov/player ratio is a bit less, about 23. That water in the middle does introduce some interesting strategic attack options, and would force most battles to take place in the sea. So think about it.

Hopefully, we can begin the pretender creation/placement phase by this weekend.

Thanks.

[Septimius Severus]

oops, edit my above post, that is Planet Rorscach #3, not #4 on my list. Yeah there is a version with sailing starts, but I'll be placing nations manually so doesn't really matter I don't think. I'm going to get in touch with Cleveland if I can for a recommendation.

Oh yeah, and Hoplosternum is in for Vellon (no responses/no posts on our forum). I haven't heard from Skinu in awhile either. So some more noobs/alternates would be nice. I like to be prepared.

Originally Posted by TheDemon

There's the modified versions of World of Geometry that were used for Prepo. The team arena version I believe. It had 12 branches instead of 10.

Yep, that one is on my list of candidates already.

[namad]

i think that in theory the map selection definitely effects the effectiveness of some individual nations... now people might be too lazy to change their preferences in light of this data but it seems to only be technically correct that the map be declared before the preferences of nations submitted?


certainly map selection is not dependent on untopimized's pick... so perhaps we can have the map selected by tonight/tomorrow so that when unoptimized is home and tells you his nation that will allow us all to submit our preferred list of nations?

if you currently have a list of preferred nations that is one nation longer than it needs to be all you will have to do when untopimized picks his nation is to remove it from your list that had an extra nation on it.... that step will require no extra deliberation

[melnorjr]

I vote 3. Planet Rorschach for the map

[Hoplosternum]

Personally I don't like any of the maps for this game

I think you want a map which allows all 18 (?) players to fight each other. No one will learn much or have a great time lurking around at the back. Everyone, if possible, needs a front line.

The maps chosen while nice for ordinary mp or sp play don't fit this. They have too much sea which will stop people getting at the other side (Ogre is especially bad for this) or have constricted fronts (Symetry & the Geometry ones especially). Cleveland's Map (Map 3) is best but I think is inferior to simply making a random map with our set up.

If we make a random with very little sea (say 5% or less) for say 360 provinces at 1600*1600 pixels (so square) you should get a decent set up. These are easy to create.

We could then set up the 6 vets in a line east to west in the middle. With a line of 6 noobs close to the North edge (but not right on it) and 6 more in the same position in the south. You would get a map looking something like this:

XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX
XXXXXXXXXXXxXXXXXXX
X 6 Noobs here XXXXXX
X XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX
XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX
XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX
XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX
XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX
XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX
X 6 Vets here XXXXXXX
XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX
XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX
XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX
XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX
XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX
XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX
X 6 South Noobs XXXXX
XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX
XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX

With each X being roughly a column of provinces (19*19 = 361). PS it's really square


This would give the noobs only a small amount of safe space behind their capitals so they have to expand towards danger (the Vets). The Vets have no safe space but lots of expansion room. This way the edge advantage is lessened as there is little safe hinterland that only the edge powers have. Plus the powers don't meet straight away allowing for expansion.

This enables everyone to get to at least some enemies by walking. It also gives plenty of strategy options. The Vets can perhaps shield the south 6 with two while sending four north. Or spread equally each way so they can all attack or defend in either direction. While no noob is stuck at the back the noobs could shield weaker powers somewhat. And at roughly 19 provinces wide all sets of six work out nicely with the capital and all surrounding provinces being available - everyone gets that - then expands north or south (or both) but not east or west initially. You could zig zag the Capitals if needed but I am not sure this is desirable.

Even though 20 per player is a little large these games are unlikley to drag on very long on past experience and so will end before late game micromanagement hell decends

Obviously it's best if we can get a neutral to build the map and place the capitals. But we can even use the set up without. I (or someone) makes the map and places the 18 capital locations. Then sends the map to the opposition to check that the Capital placements are reasonable and what was decided. Then, after nation selection, the noobs announce the (say) northern 6 noob powers locations east to west. Then the Vets put down their six in whatever order they like (knowing the 6 northern locations). Then the noobs declare the southern 6. So neither side can guarantee fully the match ups they like.

Anyway if you are really sold on those 5 I think Cleveland's map is best for this one game. But a random is best of all. Whatever we play we have to find someone (or some method) to place the powers. Unless you want to go random which is likely to marginalise some powers into spectators (and turn others in to doomed surrounded victims) on set up

[atul]

I thought the idea of at least map # 3 was to put teams into two cocentric circles. Vets in the middle and noobs on the edges. Could accomplish the same goal as hoplosternums.

Anyway the effect of these mostly uniform maps and geometric placements will be that the first kill will be a hard thing to achieve. How it will play will be fun to see...

[TheDemon]

The map I'm talking about is greatly different than the one referred to in your maps post. I'll attach it.

I think if you took the World of Geometry remake (prepo team arena version, not the regular version), took out all special indeps and sites, added cave connections between the branches so that the noobs can support each other and if one of them dies it threatens their immediate neighbors rather than giving a time buffer, and then added some more connections between places near the center to the caves OR eliminate the center <-> caves connections entirely. I don't think either team wants to keep on switching ownership of the center prov just to be able to perform an offensive through that prov.

Here's the original map, and also included is a second version that I propose as the variant we use. I've just swapped the center prov's connections to the 4 port provs surrounding it, removed all special sites, indeps, and poptypes, removed the VP, and added some branch<->branch connections to allow the noobs to interact. When placing starts on this map, I recommend putting the vets between the center and the start of the branches, not too close to the port provs as you don't want us in the caves system early. For the vets, something like provs 215, 144, 143 etc). The noobs should get access to the caves system early and most of their branch, I'd recommend placing them pretty far back in the branches, something like 132, 229, 56. You'll have to do some nostart editing as the start positions I think are pretty fixed.

If there's one thing contentious about the things I've changed, I think it might be the branch<->branch connections. They connect all the noob caps in a big ring with small spaces in between, which could be difficult for dominion management, and perhaps defense. However, other than the caves system, there isn't any way to move between branches. If you put branch<->branch connections further up the branches, it would be safer, but the vets might secure them first.

[cleveland]

Hi all,

S-S tells me you guys are considering Planet Rorschach for your map. If so, I hope you enjoy it, as this seems like a fun game.

The most up-to-date version is available in my signature, annoyingly named PlanetRorschach v4b.

S-S also asked for some placement advice...If I were setting up this game, I'd probably set the teams up as follows:

...where Blue is the Vet team, Red is Noobs. [I'd eliminate all the starts with a white slash through them, so no underwater nations.]

With these starts, the Vets have "circled the wagons" against the Noob assault (remember, it's wraparound), but they're split in half by the sea...so the water AND the center are both of vital strategic importantance. For added fun, I'd probably put the weakest Noob nation in the center, which the Vets will surely drive directly toward, making for some exciting Turn 5 action.

Let me know if you have any more questions. I'm traveling this weekend (as usual), but shouldn't be more than 12hrs from a computer.

Cheers,
cleveland

[vfb]

Well, while you are traveling, be sure to put the finishing touches on your much-anticipated MA Man guide.