MP: Morla MA noob game (running)

[Olm]

Originally Posted by shatner

Unless you wish to be named a pact-breaker, you will observe our NAP-3 and refrain from invading for a full three months. Is your imperialistic fervor really so strong that all other concerns, such as past agreements, are forgotten? That is a pity; we had mistaken Man for an honorable and civilized nation but are now shown the folly of our trusting ways.

We do not remember such a formal agreement. Could you give us prove for its existence We would surely hold to it.
(I mean this. We did some diplomatic talking ingame, but I can't remember such a pact, and cannot look it up. Perhaps you could load an old turn, and make a screenshot.)

Originally Posted by shatner

Furthermore, there is something perverse about nearly going to war several times over not getting to conquer enough of Ermor (despite showing up awfully late to the party, I might add) and then suddenly declaring yourself the grand protector of Ermor and riding out to their defense.

We agree, but helping Ermor was always Our first choice. We should have done so long ago. Better late than never.

Originally Posted by shatner

If you are going to war on two nations who have treated with you peaceably and done you the service of striking down your greatest rival, at least have the dignity to declare it as such. We, the masters of T'ien Ch'i, find your justifications flimsy and your rhetoric both craven and self-serving.

At least We have the decency to declare formal war. An honor Ermor never received from both of you.

[SpaceViking21]

Originally Posted by Olm

At least We have the decency to declare formal war. An honor Ermor never received from both of you.

Do not pretend to understand the nature of Jotun diplomacy. We sent a formal declaration of war to Ermor. We tied it to a javelin and hurled it at their vestals during the 18th month. We cannot speak for Tien for obvious reasons, but given their fair and forthright dealings we are sure they acted with as much honor as Ermor was due.

[Olm]

Originally Posted by shatner

To the nations who are not currently the target of Man's ambition, make no mistake that Man will come for you the moment it is expedient for them. For several seasons Man has spent words entreating us to war on their enemies and turn on our allies.

Thats a plain lie.

Originally Posted by shatner

And in turn we have sent diplomatic messages by the score urging tit-for-tat for peace and patience. And through all of our dealings, MAN WAS AGREEING TO PEACE, THAT THEY WOULD CURB THEIR AMBITION AND ACCEPT T'IEN CH'I AS THEIR NEIGHBORS. In other words, for the last couple of turns they were offering us peace and suddenly this turn they call for our extermination.

We offered a solution on the island, which even included giving away a province that currently belongs to us. The giants told us, they had other ideas. But nobody further discussed that with us, nor was any agreement reached with us.
All Jotunheim and T'ien Ch'i told Us was we are not ALLOWED to take provinces because they fought a war in the east. We could have taken the south of the island from Ermor a year ago, without anybody able to stop us. And now they FORBID it. And even Our generous offer is just put aside as if a child squibbles while the grown ups decide. Thats not the way the nation of Man expects to be treated.

And nobody calls for extermination. As soon as Ermor is save we may discuss the further proceedings.

Originally Posted by shatner

...Let that sink in for a moment...

At best it means that Man is so fickle that their decisions mean nothing as they will change on a whim. At worst it means all diplomatic messages from Man are only so much noise sent to distract and mislead so the recipient is less prepared when Man inevitably betrays them.

It means We made a mistake by believing Ermor when it told it was dead.
We then tried to make the best of that situation, but We definitely like the solution with a living (more or less) Ermor better.

Originally Posted by shatner

Ermor's motive in all of this is both clear and reasonable. They were the premier power that has been brought low and now lives only to spite their successors. Ermor allies with Man not because Man is honorable and worthy of alliance, but for precisely the opposite reasons. Ermor knows it will not conquer or thrive ever again so it allies with a vile and unworthy force such as Man for the sheer expediency of punishing T'ien Ch'i and Jotunheim. For this, we do not blame Ermor; nihilism and spite are the only friends left to the mighty once they have fallen.

However, this... inexcusable and laughable farce of a casus belli that Man has invoked shows that Man does not listen to diplomacy. This is the moment when Man makes its nature and ambitions known. If you are a neighbor to Man, they will come to conquer you. If you are a neighbor to Man's neighbor, they will come to conquer you. Ulm will face an invasion by Man, Pythium will face an invasion by Man; it is only a matter of time. The only way to stop this is for everyone to resist Man and Ermor in whatever means are available to them.

If Ulm fails to rally to this cause, then they are condemning themselves to subjugation. Are the proud lords of steel really so short sighted, or are they merely afraid? If Pythium fails to rally to this cause, then they too shall follow Ulm into oblivion; their hydras slain and their theurges used for archery practice.

We guess the masters of Ulm and Pythium can think for themselves and don't need your aid in it. Don't you think everyone is as easily manipulated as your somewhat oversized friends.

[SpaceViking21]

Ultimately, for all your posturing and speeches, this whole diplomatic issue boils down to one thing. Ermor was attacked for being the tallest tree in the forest. With your victory over Marignon, and declaration of war against two war-weary nations, you will be in a position to rapidly conquer Tien, then finish cutting the throat of Ermor as you push into Jotunheim. If left completely unchecked by Pythium and Ulm, you will have the capitals necessary for total victory. Unless Ulm and Pythium plan to bend their knee to you now, standing completely idle will not be an option.

[Olm]

Originally Posted by SpaceViking21

Ultimately, for all your posturing and speeches, this whole diplomatic issue boils down to one thing. Ermor was attacked for being the tallest tree in the forest. With your victory over Marignon, and declaration of war against two war-weary nations, you will be in a position to rapidly conquer Tien, then finish cutting the throat of Ermor as you push into Jotunheim. If left completely unchecked by Pythium and Ulm, you will have the capitals necessary for total victory. Unless Ulm and Pythium plan to bend their knee to you now, standing completely idle will not be an option.

There is another option than bending the knee.
As We mentioned before: sharing power in two or perhaps even three is viable.

[shatner]

Originally Posted by Olm

We could have taken the south of the island from Ermor a year ago, without anybody able to stop us. And now they FORBID it.

A year ago you, along with anyone else, were invited by T'ien Ch'i and Jotunheim to wage war on Ermor and take what spoils you could pry from their cold, undead hand. But you didn't so much as lift a finger even though you could do so "without anybody able to stop us". But after the skeleton of Ermor was lying broken and twitching, THEN you show up demanding a slice and seem confused that those of us with actual scars from the battle didn't fall over ourselves to oblige you. Your actions weren't at fault so much as your timing.

Originally Posted by Olm

And nobody calls for extermination. As soon as Ermor is save we may discuss the further proceedings.

So... what? If we drop our sieges around Ermor's forts than you'll whistle a merry tune and walk away? Since Ermor is buried in the very bottom-right of the map, in-between the holdings of Jotunheim and T'ien Ch'i, I'm unsure how exactly your liberation of Ermor is supposed to go without necessitating the wholesale slaughter of giants and humans alike. And even if we do walk away from Ermor's castles... what exactly is Ermor supposed to do other than immediately wage war on Jotunheim and T'ien Ch'i. We find your terms confusing; would you care to elaborate?

[shatner]

Originally Posted by Olm

We do not remember such a formal agreement. Could you give us prove for its existence We would surely hold to it.
(I mean this. We did some diplomatic talking ingame, but I can't remember such a pact, and cannot look it up. Perhaps you could load an old turn, and make a screenshot.)

Attached is the screenshot of a message sent by your envoy at the start of the second year (turn 24). If you check your records from the following month, you will find our acceptance of your NAP, your friendship and your support for T'ien Ch'i and Jotunheim's war against Ermor.

Reconciling the contents of that message with your recent declarations is... difficult.

[Olm]

There will be no hostilities from Man towards T'ien Ch'i before month 36. We declare that the non aggression treaty ends by that month.

[triqui]

Interesting diplomatic talk.
We, the people of Ermor, want to say only one thing:

The capitol of Ermor is once again free. 60 worthy Tien Chi soldiers, and 6 of their commanders died in the process, as well as a single heroic ermorian soldier and 20 undead body remnants.

We hereby declare this, as the Independence Day. Long live to the Broken Empire.

[SpaceViking21]

Alright, job's done and we can go back to a shorter hosting schedule now. Thanks to all of you for your patience with this situation.