Mod: Conceptual Balance Mod 1.6

[Kheldron]

Ok my bad, I answered before the question reached my brain

[Tolkien]

regarding the LA Ulm debate (templars and templars vs. guardians)

Just a quick question Fanto: what kind of bless did you put on the templars? I've been running some tests with your 4 templar+priest expansion parties (with a 4N4E4D4S4B bless: I compromised my scales more then I'd like to). They do great against light infantry/archers/light barbarians, but the parties die when put up against barbarians (regular barbarians), HC, or large numbers of HI. I can see using Call Horror+scout against these types of indy provinces, but Call Horror is blood-4, which, if you're going to start blood hunting early (like you should), you're going to be tight in research (as well as unable to touch evocation/construction for some time). I can see the strategy working pretty well, I just think it cuts into Ulm's other research priorities, and leaves Ulm somewhat vulnerable to attack. What was the pretender build you used (since the build has a big impact on the optimal strategy for a nation)? Now that I think about it, you can probably incorporate parties of templars in a general infantry/ranger/villain expansion to make the whole thing go quicker and smoother. I'm going to have to look into that.

Squirrelloid: I ran some tests with the black templars and the ghoul guardians (with the same bless) versus the bless-rush units of other nations (with prophets casting banishment on the ghoul guardians). Against Utgard woodmen with E9N9 bless, I sent 6 templars+prophet vs 6 woodsmen+prophet. The templars are slaughtered every time, while the woodsmen suffer low casualties (1-2, 3 at the most) (a very bad attrition rate, considering woodsmen are cheaper, more resource friendly, and generally more useful). Against 12 ghoul guardians+S1D1 fortune teller (which just cast frighten the entire time) vs. 6 woodsmen+prophet (casting banishment), the guardians win every time (with casualties of 1-5 vs 6), in despite of the banishment. With 6 templars vs 6 F9W9 Vans, the Vans win everytime with barely a scratch. With 12 guardians vs 6 Vans (again with a prophet spamming banishment), the guardians and Vans win some of the time, depending on whose dominion they fight on. If on opposing dominion, guardians generally kill 3-4 Vans (and leaving the remaining Vans with 90ish fatigue) and suffer 7-9 casualties before routing, while on friendly dominion, they kill all of the Vans, while suffering 7-9 casualties. Against Mictlan, I sent 12 Jaguar Warriors (F9W9N4) vs 6 Templars. The templars die to the jags every time, while the jags suffer 1-2 casualties. When I sent ghoul guardians, they won every time (0-3 casualties vs 9-12 casualties). Also note, I omitted smite from the tests against the templars. Banishment played a fairly minor role from the prophet in the attrition of the ghoul guardians. So in conclusion, Squirrelloid, I find your claim that ghoul guardians aren't effective, while templars are effective, against common sacred-rushes to be erroneous at best. Templars are slaughtered every time in the sacred-vs.-sacred battles without the interference of smite, while dealing negligible damage against sacreds themselves. Ghoul Guardians, although being undead (which, on the other hand, makes them an awesome counter against hydras), generally don't suffer all that much against banishment, and will still eat sacred for lunch, dinner, breakfast, and brunch, in no particular order. They completely destroyed Mictlan's jaguars, contrary to your claim that the jaguars would prevail. I'm going to have to test Gath's giants, but I foresee a slaughter along the lines of Utgard, in terms of casualties, as a N9E9 bless would be similarly optimal for them.

In conclusion, while I think the Templars have a niche for LA Ulm, and you can definitely expand with them, I don't think they're ideal by themselves as a method of expansion, or warrant a bless strategy. They could definitely benefit and and should receive a slight 10-20 reduction in price, but I don't think it'll be too major, or will allow Templars to really flourish. They'll still be a niche unit, albeit now a more cost-effective niche unit. Really it comes down to the age old question: ghoul guardians, or black templars? When it comes down to that, guardians will win out in most situations.

tl;dr: cheaper Black Templars=good. Some Black Templars in expansion=good(?). Templars=/=anti-sacred. Ghoul Guardians>>sacreds. Ghoul Guardians>>Black Templars.

[kianduatha]

Originally Posted by Micah

1 point of PD shouldn't get mages, ever. The only exceptions currently are EA Van and Hel, who literally have no non-mage commanders in their rosters. (Possibly some of the expansion nations have one, though I can't think of any...I just glanced at the lineups in the book)

So basically you're saying it's a bad idea because it would give something unique to Machaka?

I mean, I know it's a bit different(though not entirely unprecedented, as you mention). Frankly, Machaka can justify having a caster in relatively undefended provinces way better than Helheim or Vanheim can. After all, it's just the village witchdoctor seeing if he can disease the invading army.

It above all makes Machakan province defense unpredictable--and that might be a bad thing, admittedly. I'd personally be less likely to try and use single thugs against Machaka, knowing that there was even a 10% chance my raider would end up decayed or blinded or otherwise taken out by 1 province defense.

[Micah]

No, I'm saying it's a bad idea because getting a mage for 1 gold is a bad idea.

[kianduatha]

I'm just trying to think of a way to make Machakan province defense not become an actual liability, to the detriment of the nation. There are only a few ways to make a pile of Militia useful--it seems the most elegant way to do so is to give them a caster. It's more fitting than a priest to start, or even bumping up to a better noncaster commander.

Either way, a Voice at 20 PD would do a lot of good. You might even stop routing when your first javelin barrage kills 30 of your own militia.

[vfb]

Well, ~30 Machakan PD killed my (unbuffed, naked) D5 Wyrm in Forge of Godhood.

[kianduatha]

With Dom10, or without?

[Illuminated One]

You could change it so that the 1st commander is a priest and the 2nd a mage.


edit:

Some other thing - why have you made carcator so cheap?
I've always found him perfectly useable (he's basically a better demilich without the ability to cast gemcosting spells but with the ability to teleport for free on defense and practically immortal outside your dom if you let the commander carrying him return/retreat - and he can beat PD on his own unless that's focused on archers).

[Fantomen]

Originally Posted by Tolkien

Just a quick question Fanto: what kind of bless did you put on the templars? I've been running some tests with your 4 templar+priest expansion parties (with a 4N4E4D4S4B bless: I compromised my scales more then I'd like to). They do great against light infantry/archers/light barbarians, but the parties die when put up against barbarians (regular barbarians), HC, or large numbers of HI. I can see using Call Horror+scout against these types of indy provinces, but Call Horror is blood-4, which, if you're going to start blood hunting early (like you should), you're going to be tight in research (as well as unable to touch evocation/construction for some time). I can see the strategy working pretty well, I just think it cuts into Ulm's other research priorities, and leaves Ulm somewhat vulnerable to attack. What was the pretender build you used (since the build has a big impact on the optimal strategy for a nation)? Now that I think about it, you can probably incorporate parties of templars in a general infantry/ranger/villain expansion to make the whole thing go quicker and smoother. I'm going to have to look into that.

Call horror is now blood 2 in CBM, but before the last update it was blood 1. So you can get it pretty quick. In that game (cbm1.5) I used a f2d4b6 awake blood fountain, with the intention to go for vampires and soul contracts. Worked out well enough but If I could start over I would have used a a4d4b4 vampire queen probably.

I don´t advocate heavy use of templars anyway, but during expansion just two templars flanking makes a big difference. The thing is you can buy them right away and they don´t require undead leadership like the guardians. Past early game I´d say the templars are too expensive in most cases. So quite handy as flankers during early expansion but little else, definately not worth spending any extra points for a blessing.

In conclusion, while I think the Templars have a niche for LA Ulm, and you can definitely expand with them, I don't think they're ideal by themselves as a method of expansion, or warrant a bless strategy. They could definitely benefit and and should receive a slight 10-20 reduction in price, but I don't think it'll be too major, or will allow Templars to really flourish. They'll still be a niche unit, albeit now a more cost-effective niche unit. Really it comes down to the age old question: ghoul guardians, or black templars? When it comes down to that, guardians will win out in most situations.

Agreed 100%

[Tolkien]

Oh, you mean lesser horrors. I thought you meant regular horrors. :x