Proportions Mod Versions 2.5.2 and 2.5.3 available

[PvK]

The Master Computer thing is a problem for the AI, not just in Proportions but in Gold Patch 3. MM's hard-coded change to always use MC assumes that's always a good idea, and it isn't.

It's sort of like the phased shields thing. Someone mentioned an AI was using unphased shields and getting killed by his PPB's... there's no perfect solution, because there is no way to program the AI to _adapt_ to enemy deployments. At least in Proportions PPB's are a major research (and resource) investment to get the very effective Versions, and the AI will eventually use phased shields.

Master Computers are generally not worth the high expense except maybe with very large ships, even in the unmodded game. Unless, of course, there are allegiance subverters around, in which case they can be indispensible. Their complete block of subverter weapons makes a solution even harder. Unless/until we get a change from MM, we're left with either disadvantaging all AI, or disadvantaging all psychics. I'd probably choose the latter, perhaps by giving AI some racial tech which makes designs immune at a lower cost than an MC. Unless someone knows of a way to increase resistance to subverters (more/stronger vehicle control components?).

Troops (AFV) shouldn't be allowed to put "small arms" components on them - humans can't do it. If the AI are managing to do so, it's a minor bug, but not IMO a big deal, since the AI could generally use a boost compared to human skills at deploying troops. It's not an very big advantage, since they have to develop AFV's to get it anyway, and it's not really superior to using AFV components, except somewhat at certain tech levels, perhaps.

PvK

[JLS]

Originally posted by Aloofi:

quote:

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Originally posted by JLS:
Thats it
you shut down Psychic....
~
No prob

Do you mean that if I shut down psychic the Psychic races will always go for that pricey Master Computer?
I checked the Amonkrie and they were doing fine. The only bad thing I saw was a Shipyard ship with a Battlecruiser hull instead of the far cheaper Medium Transport hull.
Is there anything I can do to fix that without messing the current game?

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In regards to troops the Cue Cappa are designed for Psychic weapons in proportions as are the ships and some Facilities, so if you shut down Psychic they will be unable to receive their Psychic Components, Weapons and Facilities for there units, ships and Bases.
~
Same applies with any Components, Weapon and Facilities for Races on the other techs you may have shut down:

Psychic
Religious
Temporal
Stellar Manipulation
and Warp tech"

Note: Amonkrie has NO racial traits �Race Opt 1 Num Advanced Traits := 0� but they will be unable to research Stellar Manipulation if they get the opportunity. The way you have it currently set.
~
~
In regards to Master Computers that may be explained in my previous few Posts on that topic.

[JLS]

Originally posted by JLS:

quote:

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Originally posted by Aloofi:

quote:

---

Originally posted by JLS:
Thats it
you shut down Psychic....
~
No prob

Do you mean that if I shut down psychic the Psychic races will always go for that pricey Master Computer?
I checked the Amonkrie and they were doing fine. The only bad thing I saw was a Shipyard ship with a Battlecruiser hull instead of the far cheaper Medium Transport hull.
Is there anything I can do to fix that without messing the current game?

---

In regards to Master Computers that may be explained in my previous few Posts on that topic.

---

Aloofi,
View PvKs post who posted a much clearer answer. At the same time I was posting.

[ March 05, 2003, 18:01: Message edited by: JLS ]

[JLS]

Originally posted by PvK:
Master Computers are generally not worth the high expense except maybe with very large ships

PvK

Agreed,
However, what is to be done with the older designs. That want Computer Facilities in there Research Files? As it currantly set up.

PS: I did not mean to stir a hornets nest/


[ March 06, 2003, 00:05: Message edited by: JLS ]

[Aloofi]

Thanks for the answers.
About the Master Computer, what if I lower the price for it to, let's say, 1000 minerals instead of 4000?
Of course, the ships will still have a big combat penalty.....

[PvK]

Re: Master Computer use by the AI in 1.84

I should probably make a patch to try to address this, but it won't be easy, as I don't see a solution that doesn't have undesirable side-effects. That is, either all AI will be at a significant disadvantage (the current situation), or all Psychic empires will (if I make MC's cheap and lower their combat penalties). Best for newly-started games would probably be to split the computer tech area so that MC's are an option that AI's can avoid researching.

Unless anyone sees a better answer.

PvK

[JLS]

Originally posted by PvK:
Re: Master Computer use by the AI in 1.84

I should probably make a patch to try to address this, but it won't be easy, as I don't see a solution that doesn't have undesirable side-effects. That is, either all AI will be at a significant disadvantage (the current situation), or all Psychic empires will (if I make MC's cheap and lower their combat penalties). Best for newly-started games would probably be to split the computer tech area so that MC's are an option that AI's can avoid researching.

Unless anyone sees a better answer.

PvK

Agreed:
If you revise the MC's as you say, and add a Tech level for just MC's tree to the bottom of Tech area that wouldn�t break or that adversely effect currant games, would it? (except Human Players that did not get computers before the update)
The AI probably would just retro fit to there intended designs soon enough if within retro fit rules?

[ March 06, 2003, 04:55: Message edited by: JLS ]

[PsychoTechFreak]

Originally posted by PvK:
Unless someone knows of a way to increase resistance to subverters (more/stronger vehicle control components?).

The only way I see is either to lower the range percentages of the subverters or to strengthen the defense values (lower the to-hit-chances). It is not comparable with damaging weapons.

A bit off topic (I mean out of this specific question):
Medium Transporters with SY components. I have not yet found an AI race using this cheap solution, at least they don't use it in the later states of a game 60-100 years.
My question to PvK, was it even intended? If so, I think some AI ship designs could be improved by this, if not, I guess the cargo capabilities of SY components will be removed soon (3.00 Foundations).

[Fyron]

Originally posted by PsychoTechFreak:

quote:

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Originally posted by PvK:
Unless someone knows of a way to increase resistance to subverters (more/stronger vehicle control components?).

The only way I see is either to lower the range percentages of the subverters or to strengthen the defense values (lower the to-hit-chances). It is not comparable with damaging weapons.

A bit off topic (I mean out of this specific question):
Medium Transporters with SY components. I have not yet found an AI race using this cheap solution, at least they don't use it in the later states of a game 60-100 years.
My question to PvK, was it even intended? If so, I think some AI ship designs could be improved by this, if not, I guess the cargo capabilities of SY components will be removed soon (3.00 Foundations).

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It is safe to say that it was intended. Otherwise, PvK would never have added the Cargo ability to SY components.

SYs on Medium Transports allows you to do remote mining earlier, which is actually useful in Proportions (unlike the standard game).

[PsychoTechFreak]

Originally posted by Imperator Fyron:
It is safe to say that it was intended. Otherwise, PvK would never have added the Cargo ability to SY components.

You are right, that is an obvious sign
In this case, I am going to observe some of the earlier AI ship designs to probably increase AI profitabilities.