OT: Carbon Dioxide races -> known vs unknown -> terraforming mars -> is or is not

[Taera]

The background to my question is the fact that in my current RP my Taeran bugs are creating a close alliance with oxygen-breathers.

Thermodyne: No. Completely no. You're trying to reason with it the normal way. Not all living creatures have to use oxygen - if we cant explain it it doesnt mean it cant be.

Loser: Yep, my bugs didnt have much oxygen there, but they had some - i doubt the mere existance of the gas would cause equipment failure. Still an interesting note to remember.

Erax: Your completely right, unlike humans or mammals in general insectoids do not breathe with their skin - first of all because of the lack of such they have tough natural carpace and have multiple breathing orifices, usually along their thorax or legs.

So considering the exoskeleton is airtight and the only places that receive outside air are treated with a breather, and of course pressure and gravity are in reasonable limits, my bugs should be able to survive on an oxygen or even on a methane atmosphere right?

BTW, regarding Earth not being an Oxygen planet, technically this is true but i think it depends what the planet's flora and fauna uses, plus the atmosphere layers composition (for all i know atmosphere has plenty of H20, 03 and 02 in it) rules that the planet is, after all, an oxygen planet.

[Fyron]

Not all living creatures have to use oxygen - if we cant explain it it doesnt mean it cant be.

The problem is that there are no other substances that can perform all of the roles of oxygen in complex organisms. All organisms on Earth that are more than a simple cell rely on oxygen for all parts of energy generation (not necessarily storage, as for plants, but the molecules they store it in still rely on oxygen). This is because oxygen is a very unique substance that has just the right combination of electronegativity, molecular mass, size, charge, ionization, etc. to work as it does in organisms. Complex alien organisms that do not rely on oxygen could not rely on a single gas; they would have to use several things to fulfill all of the roles of oxygen. And yes, they all need to be fulfilled, because they are too fundamental to be ignored (all relating to energy transmission within the organism and releasing the energy to be used).

[Suicide Junkie]

As long as the pressure and temperature are reasonable, a breather should do for short periods or moderate emergencies.
You'll need something like a diving drysuit if the chemical composition is physically harmful or toxic (eg chlorine, mercury)

[oleg]

I.F., most likely you are correct. In fact I'll not bet a peny against a 1M of pounds that you are wrong. However, there is no much difference between, for example, yeasts and humans - 60% genome similarity ! We know of the extreme habitats of anaerobic bacteria. There is nothing in the laws of physics to prevent the evolution of more complex organisms there too. Yes, it is unlikely, I agree with you, but it is still inside boundares of the serious science.

[Fyron]

Anaerobic respiration (releasing energy from glucose and such without the use of oxygen) is too innefficient for it to work for complex organisms. It can only be used continuously for very simple single celled organisms. It is done in complex organisms such as humans as an extreme backup (such as during very heavy, prolonged excercise), but it is not effective for very long.

[Thermodyne]

Originally posted by Taera:
The background to my question is the fact that in my current RP my Taeran bugs are creating a close alliance with oxygen-breathers.

Thermodyne: No. Completely no. You're trying to reason with it the normal way. Not all living creatures have to use oxygen - if we cant explain it it doesnt mean it cant be.

Loser: Yep, my bugs didnt have much oxygen there, but they had some - i doubt the mere existance of the gas would cause equipment failure. Still an interesting note to remember.

Erax: Your completely right, unlike humans or mammals in general insectoids do not breathe with their skin - first of all because of the lack of such they have tough natural carpace and have multiple breathing orifices, usually along their thorax or legs.

So considering the exoskeleton is airtight and the only places that receive outside air are treated with a breather, and of course pressure and gravity are in reasonable limits, my bugs should be able to survive on an oxygen or even on a methane atmosphere right?

BTW, regarding Earth not being an Oxygen planet, technically this is true but i think it depends what the planet's flora and fauna uses, plus the atmosphere layers composition (for all i know atmosphere has plenty of H20, 03 and 02 in it) rules that the planet is, after all, an oxygen planet.

When life was getting started on earth, it was not an O2 planet. Life created the excess 02.

[Suicide Junkie]

It is done in complex organisms such as humans as an extreme backup (such as during very heavy, prolonged excercise), but it is not effective for very long.

Say what?
I think you mean "during short bursts of heavy activity" such as sprinting and weight lifting.

[Taera]

i repeat myself, if we do not know it exists it doesnt mean it cannot exist. Perharps there are gases we do not know. Perharps there are other ways of extracting energy, say, from splitting the C atoms or whatever. In here im not limiting myself to known science. Yes, i know that what your saying is true, im just not blindly agreeing it is the only truth.

[Fyron]

There are no natural elements that we do not know (unless one of those ~180 proton (or was it 240?) theoretical elements somehow formed in some place in the universe, but it would certainly not be conducive to life). There are only so many ways elements can bond together, and I think every possibility (or at least eveyr possibility that has a remote chance of being useful to any sort of organism) has been seen in nature or made in laboratories.

Splitting atoms releases so much energy that a naturally evolved lifeform would certainly not be able to handle it.

Of course there are other ways of extracting energy from molecules (and atoms, but atomic energy is a bit much for natural organisms). Most of them are either too innefficient to sustain complex organisms, or they are too destructive (such as splitting atoms).

Matter is fundamentally ordered (in some ways). All pieces of matter with X protons share identical properties. They take on variations, such as isotopes (different decay rates, different masses) and ions (different charges). But, their fundamental properties are still essentially the same. Carbon 14 is nearly identical to Carbon 12, with only relatively minor differences. This is why there is no such thing as "different gases" and "different matter". It is the same everywhere in the universe, barring anti-matter, which we do not know if it even exists in nature. Any statements about it beyond the basics of what antimatter is (according to theory, I do not know if any has yet been made in labs) would be pure speculation.

Originally posted by Suicide Junkie:

quote:

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It is done in complex organisms such as humans as an extreme backup (such as during very heavy, prolonged excercise), but it is not effective for very long.

Say what?
I think you mean "during short bursts of heavy activity" such as sprinting and weight lifting.

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That is what I meant, yes.

[ July 16, 2003, 07:55: Message edited by: Imperator Fyron ]

[Taera]

you're speaking of earth's chemistry and physics. You cannot claim that next solar system's physics arent different and that there are no other kinds of particles/elements there. there is a little too much "cannot" here because humans had not explored much outside the Earth. If realy, how can you know we wont find some unique element even deep in mars, in the asteroid belt or on Pluton?