My AI Design Q&A

[JLS]

AI Kamikaze Mine Sweeper

This is indeed, may be the only current approach for base se4.

How may ships would you expect to be in your fleet?
How many fleets do you expect your AI to make by turn 400?

Kami mine Sweepers, what hull would you say would be appropriate and how many Mine Sweeping Components would be installed on a good Kami Mine Sweeper?

How many Kami Mine Sweepers would you expect to be Sufficient for one AI fleet?

How many AI Kami Mine Sweepers in Total, do you think would be required for all your AI Fleets?

Please, do not consider AI vs AI, but consider a good Human Player will have a Solid 100 Mine field probably back to back, for your AI to over come.

[ June 12, 2003, 04:12: Message edited by: JLS ]

[JLS]

Bump

Originally posted by cybersol:
The AI minesweeping is defenitely not optimal, but it is somewhat sufficient. Case in point, A pair of AI's facing off don't remain sealed off from each other forever. The way the AI uses the "mine sweeper" class ship, think of it as a lone kamikaze ship aimed at the nearest marked mine field. Not ideal, but it works with enough of them. Add additional minesweepers (in place of boarding or kamikaze) that will join fleets and the result appears adequate, though far from optimal.

I use true for ships don't move through minefields

What if, the AI Player (1) had minefield that was marked belonging to Player (2) from first contact. Player (2) is 3 Systems away and a treaty is signed between the (1) and (2). Before AI Player (1) cleared Players (2) Minefield that is 3 Systems away from AI (1)players HW.

Now AI Player (1) makes first contact with Player (3) Minefield; about 15 turns after AI Players (1) agreement with Player (2), 6 Systems away from Players (1) Home World. AI player (1) and (3) almost immediately have hostilities.

With this scenario how do you think, AI player (1) will use his Mine Sweepers...

Please, no whos on first

[ June 15, 2003, 19:28: Message edited by: JLS ]

[cybersol]

Originally posted by JLS:
AI Kamikaze Mine Sweeper

This is indeed, may be the only current approach for base se4.

How may ships would you expect to be in your fleet?
How many fleets do you expect your AI to make by turn 400?

Kami mine Sweepers, what hull would you say would be appropriate and how many Mine Sweeping Components would be installed on a good Kami Mine Sweeper?

How many Kami Mine Sweepers would you expect to be Sufficient for one AI fleet?

How many AI Kami Mine Sweepers in Total, do you think would be required for all your AI Fleets?

I think we are understanding each other, but just to make sure. I used kamikaze meaning suicidal in reference to how the AI uses "Mine Sweeper" Design Type ships. These do not join fleets, so I also mentioned that I use a "Kamikaze Attack Ship" or "Boarding Ship" Design Type ship with minesweeper for fleet use.

So I am still testing, but right now I am using a "Kamikaze Attack Ship" class design in a fleet minesweeping and fleet repair role. Fleets are set to be around size 20 at the start to 60 or more in the late game. These support ships have 5 to 10 minesweeping components and 0-2 repair components as they increase from LC to DN. I am putting these in fleets at a 1 to 3 ratio with the main attack ship so far. Overkill for the late game probably, but seems good for late early-mid game when the AI has the most problems with mine fields.

If the don't move through minefield flag is true remember the fleet will not move through marked minefield until the minesweeper class clears them. But they will still walk over new mine fields like they are not there. If it is false then you will lose some scouts and colony ships unnecessarily but your fleets should be move straight through.

As for the other lone wolf "Mine Sweeper" class ships, they are basically all minesweepers because they are going to die on a large minefield at some point. If they run into a fleet they are toast anyway because they are alone. That is why I called them suicidal.

As I said, I'm still testing and this just what I am using now. MB and others have much more experience. Hope this helps.

[cybersol]

Originally posted by JLS:
What if, the AI Player (1) had minefield that was marked belonging to Player (2) from first contact. Player (2) is 3 Systems away and a treaty is signed between the (1) and (2). Before AI Player (1) cleared Players (2) Minefield that is 3 Systems away from AI (1)players HW.

Now AI Player (1) makes first contact with Player (3) Minefield; about 15 turns after AI Players (1) agreement with Player (2), 6 Systems away from Players (1) Home World. AI player (1) and (3) almost immediately have hostilities.

With this scenario how do you think, AI player (1) will use his Mine Sweepers...

Very intriguing question. I don't know the answer without testing it. But the test could be set up by playing all three players and then turning on the complete ai of the one that was set up.

Either way, once the first ship enters that square and does not blow up then it will most definately clear the minefield marker and move on to the next one.

[cybersol]

More questions:

6) As a human player I can design a ship with a small transport hull that has 5 mine layer components. Since their secondary ability is cargo storage and 150/300 >= 50% then this is a valid design. Is there a way to have the AI design this ship, or is a transport hull forced to have eight cargo storage components for the AI no matter what?
7) Does anyone know how to fix the fact that the AI retrofits ships and then leaves when they are only half done repairing?

[ June 12, 2003, 08:46: Message edited by: cybersol ]

[JLS]

Originally posted by cybersol:

quote:

---

Originally posted by JLS:
What if, the AI Player (1) had minefield that was marked belonging to Player (2) from first contact. Player (2) is 3 Systems away and a treaty is signed between the (1) and (2). Before AI Player (1) cleared Players (2) Minefield that is 3 Systems away from AI (1)players HW.

Now AI Player (1) makes first contact with Player (3) Minefield; about 15 turns after AI Players (1) agreement with Player (2), 6 Systems away from Players (1) Home World. AI player (1) and (3) almost immediately have hostilities.

With this scenario how do you think, AI player (1) will use his Mine Sweepers...

Very intriguing question. I don't know the answer without testing it. But the test could be set up by playing all three players and then turning on the complete ai of the one that was set up.

Either way, once the first ship enters that square and does not blow up then it will most definately clear the minefield marker and move on to the next one.

---

~~~

Originally posted by cybersol:
I use true for ships don't move through minefields,

Either way, once the first ship enters that square and does not blow up then it will most definately clear the minefield marker and move on to the next one.[/QB]

This appears conflicting, if you Modified the se4 Default setting of = False to true

AI setting file:
Ships don't move through minefields := True

Will the AI player (1) actually? ~ � once the first ship enters that square and does not blow up then it will most definitely clear the minefield marker and move on to the next one.�

It may be recommended with base se4, that you set Mine Sweeper availability to be a high priority tech to Research, if you wish your AI to expand?

=

Once AI player (1) has Mine Sweeper tech, and a treaty-will this AI move to Player (2) then Un-Toggle the Players (2) minefield and attempt a move to sweep Players (3) minefield?

Then, what if� Player (1) had mine sweepers all ready, but had not moved to upsweep players (2) prior to the agreement (Still marked) would a move after this treaty, un-toggle Players (2) Minefield, even if there are still mines present? If so, would Player (1) Minesweepers move in an attempt to sweep players (3) Minefield?

======================================

I assert this scenario, not to be a wise guy, but only that I was on the premise you wanted a un-MODED AI for an unmodded game.

Originally posted by cybersol:
I am in the process of developing my first AI for the unmodded game.
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Alas that requires modding though.

� I use true for ships don't move through minefields � In the AI settings file.
By this change of the se4 original data, You have in fact made your first MOD to se4.

In doing this you have changed the way the AI, will intrepid Sceneries, and you may not have the results you would anticipate for that AI.

There is a reason this is default false, for original se4.
I can assure the default intent of :=False is not to have the AI Sacrifice Combat Ships foolishly in another player�s minefield until all mines are depleted.

[ June 12, 2003, 17:38: Message edited by: JLS ]

[cybersol]

Originally posted by JLS:
This appears conflicting, if you Modified the se4 Default setting of = False to true...
Will the AI player (1) actually? ~ � once the first ship enters that square and does not blow up then it will most definitely clear the minefield marker and move on to the next one.�

It may be recommended with base se4, that you set Mine Sweeper availability to be a high priority tech to Research, if you wish your AI to expand?

Well, by definition in creating a AI, I am modifying the AI files of a race. So all changes to the AI files of that race are fair game. "Ships don't move through minefields" is in xyz_AI_Settings.txt so I can change it to whatever I want. But I am not changing the data files, thus in essence the goal in a competitive AI for the unmodded game. This is similar to the goals of the TDM Modpack for instance, only on the scale of only one race for me right now.

Now their is a trade-off to both settings of ships don't move through minefields. If it is true, then only "Mine Sweeper" Design types will move into marked minefields. Predictable and since they travel alone, they could be prey to an intelligent human opponent. If it is false, then the behaivor is less predictable but the AI acts as though it doesn't know about the minefield. So it sends innocent ships without minesweepers to their demise.

So to answer you question explicitly, the AI will move a "Mine Sweeper" design type into the mine field even when set to true. At that point if at least one ship survives, my experience so far is that it will clear the marked minefield. It may be smart and clear these marked minefield when making a treaty, but I wouldn't bet on it.

Yes, ship construction, an early weapon, point defense, and then mine sweepers are early research priorities for the AI IMHO.

[Suicide Junkie]

It may be smart and clear these marked minefield when making a treaty, but I wouldn't bet on it.

Even if it dosen't, as soon as a ship enters that sector and dosen't die, the field marker gets cleared.

[cybersol]

Originally posted by Suicide Junkie:
Even if it dosen't, as soon as a ship enters that sector and dosen't die, the field marker gets cleared.

Thanks SJ, that is what I was trying to say the sentence before that.

Any thoughts on questions 1-7) from the P&N Master?

[JLS]

Originally posted by JLS:
(1) Why would you want the AI to invest the Resources for a cloaking BSY, as opposed to a shield and PD?

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Originally posted by Master Belisarius:
Good question. My oppinon is that the Armor Cloak is good because give the bonus and a little protection while cloaked. Anwyay, a lone space shipyard usually is dead meat...

Great tip, MB. I am going to use Armor Cloak more for my AI Designs


[ June 12, 2003, 22:26: Message edited by: JLS ]