[OT] Cr*ppy Belgium

[Krsqk]

Originally posted by primitive:
It won't solve any problems, just move them to another location. The third worlds resentment agaist what they perceive as US/Western oppresion and aggression will increase even faster, and new terrorist bases will pop up somewhere else. It's far better to have one weak enemy you know and can control, then to have enemies you don't know.

No, the climate of hatred against the US already exists. Removing Saddam doesn't create a new problem somewhere else. Not removing Saddam doesn't prevent hatred against the US.

The world, in general, doesn't get its perspective of Americans from its foreign policy. In fact, according to a very recently released study, most non-Americans got their information about America from Hollywood. Those who knew Americans personally were less likely to hold negative views of the US than those who did not.

Militant Muslims call America the "Great Satan." This isn't because of our foreign policy; it's because of our culture, or at least their perception of it. They see us as a sexually promiscuous, greedy, irreverant, blasphemous people who stand in direct defiance to Islamic law. As such, in their minds, we must be destroyed and made subject to their laws.

How ironic that Hollywood is so strongly for talking about and "understanding" the view of these fanatics, when they would be the first people to go should the fanatics get their way.

[couslee]

now they are getting us back. oh, the US is too good for our military alliance? guess what? we dont need to play with you either. thats what they're telling us. and they have every right to.
and
both sides are picking members like schook kids getting ready for a ballgame.
and
Reminds me of when i turned 12 and went to high school. ( 12yr old HS student?)
anThen i punched one of them so hard in the face, a tooth flew out of his mouth. Case closed.

I certainly hope they have a better reason than the childish reason of "they told us no thanks" for failing to provide defensive measures for Turkey. If 12 yr old HS students are running the country, then perhaps whay they need is a good punch in the mouth. That is one sorry excuse to block NATO.

If I need $500, and 8 people say here is $100. Should the three people I say "no thanks, the need is met" too get offended because I didn't take "THEIR" $100? And in their anger go take it out on a third person who is in need?

I certainly hope that is not the situation. If it is..... They need to (expletive) grow up.

Besides, Iraq has already threatened many times to attack Turkey, and anyone else who aids the USA during wartime events. The threat is real, the lack of Turkish defensive aid is stupid.

And the excuse that it might be seen as a sign that talks have failed is just as lame. Perhaps everyone should wait until Saddam attacks them before making a move, because it might not be "politically correct". Iraq is a neighboring country to Turkey. It's easy to point a nay finger when your several nations away from the threat.

[Baron Munchausen]

Hmm, hmm... such a menu of issues to comment on!

First of all, I think that the current European opposition to US policy on Iraq has more to do with the method than the content. If GWB had gone to the UN first, and with an attitude of really expecting to have to negotiate, there would be far fewer pissed off people in the world today. Instead the 'US Administration' simply announced that it was time for regime change in Iraq. As if this is a matter that can be determined in a cabinet meeting of the US government. Only after a lot of protest, domestic and international, was the case even taken to the UN Security Council, where it should have been started.

There are of course a certain number of countries that simply hate the US and resist anything the US wants, and they would oppose us anyway. They are no doubt in a state of glee over the way we have alienated most of our traditional allies in this debacle. Their work is much easier now.

That said, there is more than a little fault to be found with US foreign policy of late. Yes, Iraq has defied the UN mandates coming from the Gulf War for years, but that does not change the fact that it is the UN which must respond, not the US. The UN should have been primed and ready to get tough on Iraq, too. All it needed was some leadership which the US could have provided. But the many unilateral actions of the Bush administration prior to the emergence of this issue has soured the atmosphere and encouraged the other major players at the UN to think of ways to cut the US down a notch rather than how to advance international 'law and order'.

The behavior of the US Govt. on the domestic front seems to be just about the same as it is internationally. Gather all authority to itself. There is a push on to paper-over the entire constitution and create a police state with 'emergency powers' that have no defined limits and no defined times or conditions for their end. If you liked the 'USA Patriot Act' just wait for Patriot Act II which is rumored to be in the works.

[ February 12, 2003, 04:59: Message edited by: Baron Munchausen ]

[Greybeard]

My comment about taking all US troops out of Europe was intended to be said somewhat tongue-in-cheek. However, it doesn't quite read that way. Sorry.

I am tired of our leaders thinking that the US ought to be the world's policeman. Our economy is in the tank due to overspending, the world's economy is responding to fundamentals that exist even though the experts say we're in a new era, and all of us will probably be able to tell our grandchildren about living through the depression...Greybeard

BTW, the government of the US is a democratic republic, and NOT a democracy. Don't feel bad though, even our Representatives and Senators don't seem to know the difference.

[Puke]

well, i probably shouldnt start talking about my ideas on politics. regarding the situation in Mesopotamia though, yes Iraq has weapons of mass destruction. we gave them to them to use against the Iranians to defend against their "human wave" attacks, a trick that they probably learned from the Russians. or maybe its just a timeless oldie.

Regarding justification for war, no we dont need any more. But no one gives a **** about Iraq, its weapons, or its human rights abuses. Just like no one cares about the human rights abuses in the Congo, or anywhere else. People care about money, oil, and power. now dont get me wrong, i like those things. our economy runs on money, and we get alot of that from oil. sure, a utopian paradise could do very well with alternate fuel systems, but we dont live in one of those. so its time to get used to it. the people in power like oil, and use it to get more money and power. sometime, it might dry up. but right now, its worth spending alot of money and lives to control. thats just the way it goes.

no one fought in south east asia for good an right, we did it for rubber, and money, and power. Im tired of all the global policeman make-believe. the people of all the other countries in the world think we are a bunch of dicks. their governments support us because they have to, not because their people want them to. if we are going to start this globalization / imperialist / hegemony stuff, lets stop kidding arround and just do it. no one is falling for the propaganda anyway.

lets slap some "Standard Oil" logos on the tails of our fighter jets, and get this over with.

[Askan Nightbringer]

Well I was going to construct a thought provoking argument, with just a touch of cynical humour, but Puke said it way better than I ever could. So a big thumb's up to him.

Askan

[Zarix]

Puke, you are right about the global policeman thing. If US had been a global policeman in Afganistan something would have been done to the local opium business.

[Ruatha]

I belive that Puke hit the nails head. A bit honesty would improve others view on the US strategy and might even get people to approve.

[ February 12, 2003, 09:10: Message edited by: Ruatha ]

[Rollo]

aye, Puke. Well said.

In response to US troops in Europe (or worldwide for that matter). Do you really think that these troops are there to defend helpless allies and the US is doing everyone a favor on the tax payer's expense?
No, these troops serve to protect US interest worldwide and conduct military campaigns around the globe. How do you think the US can deploy troops to the middle east and maitain their supply lines without bases in Europe?
Don't get me wrong, I do realize that there are many benefits for the other countries as well (yes, and also protection). The point is that the US would shoot themselves in the foot to abandon their bases.

[damien]

this from an Iraqi blog
http://dear_raed.blogspot.com/

"the West won the world not by the superiority of its ideas or values or religion but rather by its superiority in applying organized violence. Westerners often forget this fact, non-Westerners never do."
-- Samuel P. Huntington

:: Tuesday, December 03, 2002 ::
:: salam pax 2:55 AM [+] ::
The whole region is a cesspool. dictatorships are all around the arab
region. Turkey and Iran fair just as bad as the rest of the lot. But the
benevolent western eye looks at Iraq only.
Thank you for your keen interest in the human rights situation in my
country,
thank you turning a blind eye for thirty years,
thank you for providing the support for my government to send 2 million
Iraqis to war with Iran and getting them killed,
thank you for not minding the development of chemical weapons by a nut case
when you knew he was a nut case,
thank you for not minding that members of the Iraqi communist party get acid
baths (you don't think that this was used for the first time in Kuwait do
you?, the government used these baths since the late 70's),
thank you for ignoring all human rights organizations when it came to the
plight of the Iraqi people,
thank you for keeping sanctions which you knew only weakened the people and
had no effect on the government.
Thank you for knowing all this and not minding.
For all your efforts I salute you with a hearty **** YOU.

There isn't a single bit of information which is not old and has been
rehashed by many human rights organizations before, so what makes you so
worried about how I manage to live in this **** hole now?
Don't read it if you are faint hearted, that is except if your name was
Raed, he has to because I say so.
Not a single line would raise an Iraqi eyebrow with amazement. This is how
it is and how it has been. Everyone heard a thousand horror stories, others
have witnessed them and still live here. Bite your tongue and move on. Don't
ask.

I forgot to thank all the western construction companies who have built the
mentioned prisons, and the eastern European countries who provided the
training.

So now you care? I don't know whether I am angry, sad or scared. You had the
reports all the time and you knew. What makes today different than a year
ago?

"No one doubts the barbarism of Saddam Hussein. It dates back to the period
when, under a Conservative government, the UK was willing to sell him
arms-related equipment and to give him substantial financial credit so that
he could afford to make purchases."
so while you're at it why don't you pull out the dossier about Syria? Or
maybe Turkey? I am sure you are already layouting the Saudi dossier and
making it look as nice as the Iraqi dossier, very good layouting don't you
think so?