M4 Carbine Range question

[Karagin]

I go off the manuals for the weapons, those are normally what the militaries go off as far as doctrine, while they may differ on what is the effective engagement range, they won't argue over the maximum range of the weapon because they can prove that exist and have done tests to find it.

Right now it the game many of the rifles out range the M16s and M4s that are the weapons of the two US forces, even for a simulation/game that is not even on par with fairness for game mechanics. After looking through the OOBs of Russia and China even their oldest weapons of a similar class are longer-ranged than the US ones.

This game is not BATTLETECH, we are not playing it on a table-top, in that game weapons that do larger damage amounts have a range of thrown rock, and the ones that do a couple of points of damage have ranges that go beyond the horizon. This game, which does simulate combat, should reflect things better, IMVHO.

The point I am going at, is with all the sources out there, it does seem like the ranges for some weapons were nerfed and it's not on a logical and understandable concept. I can see that I am barking up a tree that isn't going to move, so having said my peace I will adjust them to meet what I want.

[Mobhack]

The game uses battlefield effective ranges, not laying out comfortably on a range firing at paper targets in your own time sort of ranges.

I found that my normal "range" accuracy with the SLR went waay down when we did a "march and shoot" on the combat range (pop up targets at random ranges, running up to the top of a 20 foot tower to take the shot etc), all after a lovely ten mile hike in full combat load in broiling Vogelsang sunshine in a year so dry we weren't allowed to cook out in the field and so food was brought out in landrovers on manouvres (50DM spot fine for an open fire in 1977 money per head, not per fire).

At least since it was so hot, we did not have to do the usual "dig a trench in full noddy suit" exercise followed by "on the ranges firing in NBC". But from experience - do not expect to hit much when zipped up in impregnated carbon suits with respirators on. The game does not do NBC - but if you want to try, then probably edit all troops from 6 MP to 4MP, any HMG from 4 to 2 and any mortars to 0 would be a likely starting point, together with editing all non-vehicle weapons to half the default?.

And I gather that folks who have tried shooting on a "two way range" find that accuracy falls off considerably in those circumstances. Luckily, never had to do that myself. Just heard stories from the regular PSI staff..

So the game uses a set of nominal ranges - all carbines are say 400m, all SMG 100-150m and the M4 is a "carbine" so it gets put in the generic useful range bucket for carbines.

Bottom line is that the game doesn't use the "I can shoot a gnat's gonads off at 1/2 mile at my local paper target range" metric of "hobbyist shooting" . Remember that most regular troops don't have the passion for shooting that civvy hobbist types do, and conscripts even less. All they care about is a basic pass score on the annual marksmanship test (if thier army even does one).

If you disagree - unlike most games that lock you into thier "approved" dataset you have mobhack. Just remember to run the points calculator after any edits. And if playing PBEM, you may have to negotiate with your opponent on your changed OOBs.

[DRG]

Originally Posted by Karagin

Right now it the game many of the rifles out range the M16s and M4s that are the weapons of the two US forces, even for a simulation/game that is not even on par with fairness for game mechanics. After looking through the OOBs of Russia and China even their oldest weapons of a similar class are longer-ranged than the US ones.

What? no examples to compare? I'm not surprised but we do get the " the USA is disadvantaged!!" at least once a decade so I guess we were due for another eruption of it

The standard Russian AK-74 using the 5.45×39mm cartridge and iron sights has an in-game range of 8 which translates to 400m.

A current Chinese rifle squad in the game carries a QBZ-95 Rifle which also has range 8

Box stock , iron sight "M16 Rifle" in the USA / USMC OOB is also 8 so the Russian isn't longer ranged. The Canadian 5.56mm C7 Rifle is which is an M16 dirivative is also 8 . French FAMAS Rifle...8

The Brit SA80 Rifle is 9 but it has optics. The M16A4/M4 ACOG is 9..again optics. The Canadian 5.56 C7A1 Rifle is 9.....optics again. The Russian AK-12 is 9..... again optics all on firearms using an intermediate cartridge. French FAMAS Inf...9.again optics

Now lets look at the Full power .30 cal firearms

Russian M1930-- range 10
US M14 - range 10.... M1 Garand -10
Brit/ Canadian and a host of others FN-- 10
Frech MAS 36 Rifle -10

The German G3 using 7.62×51mm NATO has a range of 10 and the G36 using 5.56×45mm NATO with optics has 9...again the same as the other full powered and intermediate powered cartridges.

The consistency is 100% and I did not discard examples that didn't prove my point. Each example was chosen at ranndom and recorded so the US/USMC infantry are not disadvantaged compared to Russian or Chinese troops using comparable weapons UNLESS you think US/USMC should be given special advantages over every other nation

Is that was this is all about?

and when you are done mulling that over you can expand and explain the "not even on par with fairness for game mechanics" remark.. as there are NO differences in game mechanics aside from Experience and morale ratings and in that the US/USMC tends to near the top of the heap

[Karagin]

M4 has a range of 4 maybe 5 depending on which OOB and time stamp. I pointed out the weapon has a range of 500 meters effective, I am told that this is a game, not a simulation (odd how other things are close enough to real life in this game) so hey it's good, I made the adjustments to reflect what I believe the ranges should be based on.

And mulling? No sorry, I asked a question and what I got was push back from you and Shuirr. Share points out its game, not a simulation, and when I point that hey primary infantry weapons system is jack up for the US/USMC OOB which by the way USMC started switching to M4s in 2015 so the USMC OOB is not reflecting that, I have DRG telling me that I am mulling? Cool got it. Thanks again for reason why things are as they are.

[Karagin]

Real World Stats
AK-47 effective range POINT target 350 meters (7 hexes, game listed it at 8)
AK-74 effective range POINT target 500 meters ( 10 hexes, game has it at 8)

For an Area target, AK-47 had 550 meters (11 hexes)
For the AK74 on an Area Target, it's 800 meters (16 hexes)

This is based on each hex being 50 meters.

The US M16 has 500 meters for a point target and 800 meters for an Area target. Now the Max range is 3600 meters. So in the game, it has 9 hexes

The M4 Carbine has 500 meters effective point target which would be 10 hexes, area target is 700 meters (15 hexes).

So what I have found is that things are somewhere in the realm of reality fo the AKs and so what NOT for the M16/M4.

Now could it be that originally the info for CAR-15 was given to you or to SSI for the M4 and no one caught because no one was worried about infantry battles post-1995? I don't know, but I do know that you guys go on the defensive really quick when we the ones who keep playing and supporting the game ask questions or point out issues or things we find that just don't add up.

I get it, you guys have put TONS of work into this and sure I know it sucks to be told things are messed up and I know you can't please all of us, but really, getting mad that it's point out?

If there is a valid reason the ranges do not reflect real life when they can be for some things then just point that out and explain why, I asked a simple question to get an understanding, it's not like I asked you to revamp the entire system or to add in a better way to show all the optics and laser targeting and all that fancy cool but hardly used stuff.

Also, as you said we have MobHack to make adjustments, thus in all reality it's an easy fix for me to make the changes on my end and for you to keep them as they are for the OFFICAL OOBs. I don't play very many PBEM games or tournaments anyway so I am all good to make the changes I feel are needed.

[Suhiir]

Originally Posted by Karagin

by the way USMC started switching to M4s in 2015 so the USMC OOB is not reflecting that,

Not sure where you got your info but the USMC never switched from the M16 to the M4 en mass like the US Army did.

Yes, they used M4s, when available (usually borrowed from the US Army) during certain urban situations, and many people that would have normally been issued a handguns used M4s because they're more compact then a full size M16 (officers and senior NCOs can pretty much draw any weapon they like, during Gulf I at various times I carried and M16, M9, M1911, and an M870). Marine Recon generally uses M4s because if they do their job right they never shoot at anyone and they have enough other gear to carry they need to cut weight when and wherever possible. But outside the mid east everyone still used M16s, and these days M27s. To the USMC the M4 is a niche weapon not a general issue one.

And I apologize if you feel I was in any way "pushing back" I was simply trying to explain why the ranges are what they are in WinSPMBT.

[Karagin]

I got my information from a currently serving Captian in the USMC, is that good enough for you? Also, there are reports that they are switching over making the rounds through the military newsgroups.

https://www.marinecorpstimes.com/new...m16-to-the-m4/

And here is one saying the M27 will replace all M4s

https://www.popularmechanics.com/mil...assault-rifle/

[DRG]

It does not say the M27 will replace all M4s is says

The M27 Infantry Automatic Rifle will replace the M4 carbine in many combat-related positions. Other troops will continue to use the M4.

"in many" does not = "all" so the M4 is not going to disapear

Many years ago when the idea of turning SPWW2 into SPMBT began there were discussions that involved a number of people , not just Andy and I, and it was agreed that standardized ranges based on how we knew the game worked the data we inherited from SSI were the best compromise given how big we suspected the database was going to get so there is a ( mostly ) uniform constant for rifles using full strength cartridges, intermediate cartridges, carbines, SMG's and pistols and we have for the majority of infantry weapons like that but there will always be exceptions that creep in when the database is as large as they are for the two games and when multiple people were involved in the early OOB work. Once ACOG type optics started being common we increased the accuracy of the rifles they were attached to and added one hex to their range and we considered that a fair trade-off and still do in a game where how well the rifle functions in it's intended purpose is more reliant on the Experience and Morale values of the units that use it not max range fire.

That said nearly 20 years of work has no doubt introduced some unwanted variables. I did notice on a check I ran that there are Type 56 rifles and Type 56 carbines and while the carbines have a HEkill of 2 vs 3 for the rifle version their range is consistent at 8 but there was a phase early on when there were multiple people working on OOB's that "national naming" was in vogue so if one nation used the word "carbine" to describe a rifle then "carbine" was used and maybe it really wasn't a short barreled weapon. That said where their are Rifles and Carbines of the same type listed in an OOB the carbine version should not have the range the rifle version does and that will be investigated and I have found wider variances in the range of the various "M4" carbines both for range and HEK than I expected to but given there are 1413 Weaponclass 1 weapons in the game ( we have a program that counts things like that ) it's not a simple or easy project

Edit.

I have found consistencies and happily for me it was the first one I seriously looked into.

The M1 and M2 in all the OOB's are consistent for all the M1's data and all the M2's data and (hopefully) I will find many more as I dig through this but ( surprise, surprise ) the one weapon type that I have ( so far ) found the widest range of different values over what amounts to a dozen or so entries in various OOB's is the M4/M4A1 and why that is exactly IDK but they will all be normalized to a consistent set of values that fits the game parameters and removing inconsistencies between similar weapons as happened with the M4/M4A1 is what I am setting out to do but SO FAR I am finding more consistencies than inconsistencies but it's a large database and it's going to take while

[FASTBOAT TOUGH]

Everyone has brought up good points here.

And I would have hoped to some degree Andy and Don could've taken a little breather after the Patch Release. But things come up after a release and somethings just need immediate attention at times concerning BOTH games.

It's clear to me that Don has already indicating that it seems he's going through the data base to address the "inconsistencies" as they arise. I only hope he's making time for his walks and enjoy a "liquid refresher" as needed. And it goes without saying that Andy enjoys the view and does the same.

I would suggest also in "loose" terms no one has mentioned the weapon interface with the shooter. I purpose that any "future inconsistencies" unless of course there's "hard data" to support otherwise, that we chock up some of these "inaccuracies", and using the game term (RL also.) EXPRIENCE.

The term covers a broad range of issues such as training, "stress", morale and whatever other calculus is used.

I offer myself as a case study (And please note I can't address some issues that fall under "non-disclosure".)

When in the USN/SS we were issued the 1911 Colt .45 through the course of my career (The 9mm came about around the time I retired in 2002.).

I shot as Qualified/Marksman/Expert (Once) in order of "how often".

When I started my current job back in 2004 we used the PK-89 9mm that weapon I truly disliked, I have big hands and it still never "felt" right and the sights, well use any adjective you wish here, weren't that great in my opinion. For this and currently, we are expected to qualify as set forth by the USN, we shoot as an active duty member is expected with the same course of fire.

I shot Qualified.

About 8-10 years ago we received our new 9mm's and you would've thought it was Christmas!!
Marksman first time out/Expert/Qualified (Once) a note about this is, I had a "real bad day" with a family member and will simply say, I shouldn't have been on the range that day due to my stress level.

My training Lt./Rng. Master and I talked about it afterwards as he saw for the first time I didn't "have my game face" on at the range. That was almost three years ago. I keep it in my head to learn from it, since then EXPERT again.

This was to illustrate the point I'm trying make at the top of this.

Also don't "our troops" (AI's well.) get a little better over time? Some of you might not see this because of how you play the game(s), I do as I always, again, play long campaigns that last at least 21 to 31 battles over the course of 12-18 months.

Wasn't a "slouch" when it came to the M-14 (My favorite.) and M-16A3 (Both w/USN and work early on, under a different contract at the time.).

Anyway have a Great Day!!

Regards,
Pat

[Suhiir]

Heck, when I was aboard dear old AS-32 in 1975-7 the Navy still had a BAR in the armory (I got to fire it once, fun weapon) and the Marines used M14s. But the new gear (usually) goes to those that need it most, so they didn't have M16s aboard ship. And in 1991 our XO drew an M79 from the armory (and a bunch of colored flares and smoke, he wanted to use it for signaling not combat).

I'd have drawn an M14 in 1991 but there were only a limited number available and I wasn't that high in the pecking order. I used the M9 only because they'd run out of M1911s.