Soviet invasion of Norway 1963

[Suhiir]

Originally Posted by Mobhack

The AI can do parachute assaults - provided that these are pre-programmed by the scenario designer. Unassigned transports, it will do nothing with as it has no clue.

A battalion-sized desant in the defender's gun line area after a few turns of air and arty prep could be a nasty thing to have to deal with..

Andy

Yeah, the AI handles parachute assaults just fine.
Helo ... not so well.

[Suhiir]

Good read.
I'll have to try to figure out how to include elements of the 63rd Naval Infantry and their Spetsnaz Bn into the scenario.

[shahadi]

Originally Posted by Suhiir

I'll have to try to figure out how to include elements of the 63rd Naval Infantry and their Spetsnaz Bn into the scenario.

From Naval bases at Murmansk on the Barents Sea, deploy an amphibious operation of Naval Infantry preceded by helicopter interdiction of Spetsnaz forces may give the scenario elements of realism and excitement. However, the scenario may have to account for Finnish and Swedish intervention as well.

At Vardo, the Norwegians in cooperation with US operate a submarine surveillance operations facility (SOSUS) monitoring Soviet Fleet Naval activity in the Barents Sea. This facility as the primary objective of the operation may make excellent use of Russian Naval Infantry and Spetsnaz forces.

Very interesting concept, audacious Russian plan similar to what we are witnessing on the Russian Ukrainian border today. Now, for cover for Cuba, Vardo is the Russian tit-for-tat. Looking forward to your scenario.

[Suhiir]

Keep in mind it's 1963 so helicopters, especially attack helicopters, are in their infancy. And for the most part ATGMs are still on the drawing board.

While the US Navy may operate out of Vardo now they probably didn't in 1963 as the Norwegians were being VERY careful not to allow any foreign basing, or even training exercises in Finnmark.

[Grant1pa]

This whole topic has dominated my interest over the last week. The more re-reading and research I've done, the more interest I have in developing some scenarios myself for this area.

The most interesting aspect I've encountered is the defense philosophy both of the Norwegians, but also the reinforcing NATO forces. Take a look at the following source I just found yesterday:

http://www.dtic.mil/dtic/tr/fulltext/u2/a224142.pdf

"Who will stand the Nordic Guard?"

It's hard to read because it's a pdf of a type written report, but it gives a good history of the Norwegian and NATO defense strategy, as well as opposing force theory. I know it's again later than what you want in your era, but its helpful.

What I like about this theater is the use of indigenous Norwegian forces (deployed in Finnmark and in Tromms, homeguard, and reserves), as well as bringing in reinforcements from the USMC, British Marines, Canadian CAST Brigade, and Dutch Marines. The terrain is terrible for the attacker, but quite Spartan in concept for the defender.

You've even got me working on maps to use. I started one for Bardufoss, and just got topo sheets for Narvik. They'll take me some time to workup, but I'll try to share them when I'm finished.

Thanks Suhiir! My wife's about ready to "deport" me!!

Grant1

[Suhiir]

The interesting coincidence of my scenario is that it just happens to take place in the Fall which by every measure is the best time to invade.

Winter - Obviously not a good idea
Spring - Ground is too wet/marshy for any significant maneuver
Summer - Doable, but still a lot of wet ground
Fall - Ground is as dry as it ever gets, weather is still reasonable

So the more I play with it an Oct 1963 invasion to gain political leverage for missiles in Cuba looks "reasonable". If operations are confined to northern Norway it's not too likely anyone will start launching nukes, and that's obviously a major concern.

[Suhiir]

I do find it VERY interesting that the major Soviet ground forces in the area are still standard MRDs.
Yes, they're "winterized" and "light" (generally PT-76s vice T-Whatevers in the MRRs) but they're still primarily mechanized forces. One would think they'd have at least a couple purely infantry divisions. Because it seems to me they're just begging to re-experience the "Winter War" or "Market Garden". Yeah there are para and naval infantry that are generally infantry-centric but they have missions of their own to perform so wouldn't really be available to act as infantry for the main advance force.

I keep wondering what I'm missing, I've never thought of the Soviets as stupid, over-centralized and doctrine-bound yes, but not stupid.

[Mobhack]

A lot of the soviet "Artic" MR regiments were MT-LB based - it is apparently much better in slush etc as it has a lower ground pressure (not modelled in SP).

Also these days there are very few "Leg only" infantry (actually, plenty of trucks in the support echelon). But the Soviets went over pretty much 100% to motor rifle or mech rifle infantry post WW2, in a big way - primarily because of nuclear and chemical warfare. Armoured transports at least get you through the slime and rads a bit more quickly, and if they have CRBN protection (which came with the roofed later model APC, but not the original open-topped tin truck 1/2 platoon types of the 50s), decent protection at least until you crack the hatches.

There is a fair amount of leg component in the para regiments, and trucks once air-mobiled in or simply driven behind the ground push to link up later.

The Spetznatz (more like UK commandos than SAS equivalents really) are about the only "leg" battalions. And even they will sometimes scrounge APCs if needed. They do have higher priority for any helo lift that is going spare, I'd imagine.

For a helo desant mission they take a normal motor rifle Bn or regt away from their transports for the operation and plan to marry them up with them again later (the drivers will be left behind, along with the trucks and their crews in the support echelon and the tanks and other AFVs from the MRR as well).

BUT - some of the really low schedule formations (C and D?) were planned to take up civilian trucks as their mounts, if there were any left over from other needs. These were the formations that would have the old stored T-34s etc. So Cat C and lower may well end up as Ww2 type "leg" grunts, but you would only see those in a full-on long war as they would need IIRC 6+ months to constitute and so would probably be more of an internal security item, since the planet would be glowing in the dark by then!. But these deep reserves you aren't going to see in your situation.

[Suhiir]

I can get around the lack of the MT-LB (which is in the Soviet OOB starting in 1964) by using the BTR-50 since it's tracked and amphibious.

True, "leg only" infantry has pretty much gone the way of the do-do, but there are times and places it's still needed (jungles, mountains). Their assumption of operations in a nuclear/chemical environment is pretty much my take on why they went essentially 100% motor/mech, that an of course enhanced maneuverability. I've heard it said that while the Germans developed the Blitzkrieg the Soviets embraced it totally.

I'm thinking of doing pretty much what you mentioned for helo desant missions and just dismount an MRR or two, also saves a bunch of unit slots (since we're limited to 500) as there's no reason to even include their vehicles.

I considered a Cat C or D unit but as you said they just wouldn't be mobilized in the amount of time I'm dealing with.

Strangely my biggest problem so far is the PT-76's, they're pretty lousy even as a light tank. So they're not that big a threat even to bazooka/RR armed opposition. I do have the 82nd Gds Ind Tank Bn with T-62's, and even 40 of those is pretty impressive in 1963.

[Mobhack]

PT-76 can be a shocker in the early years.

I'm fighting a little generated LC with Czechoslovakia in a "what if they fought it out in 1968" mode. This is rather challenging as you only have T5x against the AI's T5x, bread-and-butter T-62 and the occasional T-64 and BMP. Plus ADA is rather light (SA-2 guideline and twin 30mm SPAA, basically - no shoulder-fired Strelas).

On a recent battle, one of my T-54s fires at an advancing PT-76 at 1500 yards, misses and it then pings back a HEAT round which hits and toasts the T54... (I have had them kill me at short ranges but that one took the cake!). The HEAT on these things is an MBT killer in this time frame, if the wind is in the right direction. The AP shot deals with your APCs just fine and the HE bothers infantry a little bit. Not much ammo supply, but it swims and is cheap and worth a little respect as and until its dealt with.

Not good enough that I would put them in a Warsaw Pact core though - unlike the same period where I love to have some M-41 Bulldogs in a USA core for dealing with OPFOR tin cans. But OK for support forces at ~50 points a pop.