M777A1 vs M777A2 Excalibur

[Mobhack]

All artillery pieces in SP come with their own plotting board, and integral 'GPS' survey so you can just drop a mortar off the back of a truck and start banging away at some random target once halted. batteries have no need to have their sights paralleled (which means pieces close by each other and in LOS, or hours of theodolite survey work if not, pre GPS days).

Even in the 1930s, SP game arty is of the modern 'excalibur' type. The player does the job of an integrated computerised artillery system on his 100% accurate map and 100% knowledge of own forces positions etc. The player does all the allocations of fires.

There is absolutely no point in tighter groupings for unobserved map fires, since that aids the player-as-God with his 100% accurate map (everything is exactly where it really is if known about). So the God player could then simply vapourise everything on the map using casual unobserved map fires.

Therefore map fire in the game is deliberately penalised over 'theoretical' precisely to guard against the God-player syndrome. Only pre-game plots (ie turn 0 bombardments or programmed bombardments) or fire onto 'gold spots' have scatter that is in line with the theoretical. Any other plotted fires with no eyes-on the target is subject to scattering.

- the accuracy rating is for direct fire mode only - ie plinking tanks and bunkers over open sights. If the thing is an off-map unit only then it has no need for the statistic (but if you remove it then someone will make an SP arty piece with it..).

- Hip-shoot artillery in SP is based mainly on the observer, and accuracy from his being 'eyes-on' target. Thus if he has a laser arty designator, or a radar to see through the clag etc, or even GPS arty - he still needs to be eyes-on.

- Number of observers, and GPS (IIRC) gets you 'extra' gold spots in meeting engagements etc. But these need to be placed thoughtfully, registration cannot be done in-game - or the Player-God would abuse his eagle-eyed battlefield integration of all targets and plot onto stuff that only Private Snuffy (with no radio) actually has knowledge of, not the arty commander.

- Speed of call depends on the observer skill, and also the gunner's skill. Also the time frame (1930s arty takes longer than 1950s, 1990s is faster, etc).

- Skill of battery and skill of observer does reduce scatter, even for unobserved map fires. So plot unobserved map fires from a skilled AOP and they should generally not deviate as much as say it was called by Lt Divot, of the Catering Corps with arty skill of 0.

- Counter-battery is for off-map idle batteries, and battery skills are highly relevant. A 65 exp battery might not fire often, a 90s one probably much more, in a battle. (Increased number of enemy off-map batteries that fire on you also helps as you will test for each one in turn).

So if you want super-accurate arty, either be very prescient in the pre-plotting of registered gold spots, (or manoeuvre so he is guided onto these) - or get an observer into a position where he has eyeball on the target. Extra tech helps him, but a bog-standard AOP with LOS does fine.

Andy

[Suhiir]

So it seems it boils down to creating new formations with an Experience bonus to attempt to replicate Excalibur.

Which of course means Player-God and counter-battery would become issues.
I'm not as concerned with counter-battery since that's out of a players direct control, and the increased probability of of counter-battery isn't that big.
Player-God however probably makes implementing Excalibur unwise.

Thank you Andy.

[shahadi]

It maybe possible to implement some aspects of the Excalibur rounds. What I recall is that the Excalibur is both RA and a GPS guided munition. We have a Weapon 234, a 155mm M777 RA munition with a range of 230, that's good. Accuracy is set at 10. What if we put an air to surface missile, say the AGM65L Maverick, weapon slot 194 as the primary weapon in a 155mm M777 RA section, and set ROF to 1.

I'm setting the ROF to 1 because as I understand the Excalibur, it is a shot on target guided by GPS with increased range established by RA.

BTW, while browsing the forum I found that Andy advised a member to use Google to search for threads on the Copperhead. So, following his advise, I googled the following search: forum.shrapnelgames.com:Excalibur site:forum.shrapnelgames.com, and found this interesting post by Andy:

Originally Posted by Mobhack

Hmm - and the accuracy figure is only relevant to the weapon firing in direct fire over open sights. The acc figure for arty weapons is used when an SP mount or field gun is firing direct fire with that weapon.

To simulate laser-designated rounds in SP the ATGM route is probably best (if the observer moves, he tends to lose his shot - so needs to stay still to lase target/ set up the designation kit etc) . It is not ideal, but there is no way to simulate a desigator/missile pairing any other way really. Not without a new game engine.

Cheers
Andy

Now, I'm back to square 1, with my head in my hands.

[FASTBOAT TOUGH]

Remember I'm the equipment guy not the game engine one...
But please feel free to hammer me if needed anyway, but I've been following this for awhile now and I've not seen this brought up in the discussion yet. Is our "simulator" to be found in the game preference page specifically in the Arty accuracy settings? And how does this tie in with what Andy last addressed above already? If I set it to 100% (I normally use 90% for present day arty.) will that give me the "Excalibur factor"?

And if this cannot be done for whatever reason to support both the GPS ammo types in the field and onboard data targeting packages mounted to the M777A2, CAESAR, G9 etc. etc. then should we not reassess the artillery penalty system. I personally think as is now it should be reduced by 1/3. This is a combined arms game to my mind no different then TACTICS II, RED STAR/WHITE STAR, COMBAT LEADER, PANZER LEADER, PANZERBLITZ, AFRIKA KORPS, AXIS & ALLIES or many others I've played in the past. The ROE for arty is just too strict. I can see it if weapons like EXCALIBUR could be modeled as the below will show; you'd have a one shot kill opportunity against even heavy armor in essence. Even the engine that drives the AI recognizes the value of artillery in it's armor heavy mindset. Very VERY RARELY have I played game against the AI where I didn't face an opening barrage at the start of a battle and I'd have nothing to answer back with or support my troops with on the advance (Or tactical retreat to regroup of course .) just my thoughts on the matter for what it's worth.

Taken from Post #46 from the SP/SPAA Thread...
From Raytheon:
http://www.raytheon.com/capabilities...cts/excalibur/
http://raytheon.mediaroom.com/index.php?s=43&item=2517

From the ARMY of interest focus on all but, especially Slides 7 and 9:
http://www.dtic.mil/ndia/2012annual_psr/Milner.pdf


In the field already (EXCALIBUR 1b) and with U2 providing the music how can you go wrong-feelin better already!! Please note the target distances in the upper right corner of the video.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VNCUeItvovs

Regards,
Pat

[scorpio_rocks]

Originally Posted by FASTBOAT TOUGH

... Is our "simulator" to be found in the game preference page specifically in the Arty accuracy settings? And how does this tie in with what Andy last addressed above already? If I set it to 100% (I normally use 90% for present day arty.) will that give me the "Excalibur factor"?

Wouldn't this affect the accuracy of BOTH forces? and ALL arty not just the "Excalibur" armed unit?

P.S. Cool Video

[Suhiir]

shahadi
Andy's comment would work but ONLY for an on-map, direct-fire, line-of-sight weapon. ATGMs can't be fired from off-map.

FASTBOAT
As scorpio_rocks said that would effect ALL mortars and artillery on the force you set to 100% (or even 240%) not just one specific type.

One thing that might work...sorta...would be to create a new type of aircraft with laser-guided bombs.
But:
A) There are lots aircraft like that in the OOBs already.
B) If no aircraft are allocated in the game preferences then you couldn't buy any.
C) You have no control over the specific target aircraft fire at.

So short of a game engine rewrite, not bloody likely, I can't think of any way to implement them.

[DRG]

You can continue to experiment with adjusted setting....who knows you might find a combination that does, more or less, what you are looking for, BUT....

Indirect arty scatter is hard coded. You are never going to get an entire barrage landing in the same hex which I *assume* you are trying to simulate with these munitions

This was a game design decision made years ago. Remember each hex is 50 meters. Even in WW2 a 25 pounder battery could EASILY put every round in a 50 meter area with direct observation but we scatter the fire to spread it around far less accurately than would be the case in real life to spread the affect of arty over a wider area so instead of all arty landing in one hex it's spread out over 3 or 4 which we judge works best in the game

Don

[shahadi]

This is related to the M777 discussion in that while trialing Excalibur settings in Mobhack I noted the M777 VT, slot 233. So, is the M777 VT munition a proximity fuze or as alternately described a variable timed, hence VT fuze or even an airburst fuze. If so, then the damage model in our game should resemble that of an FAE munition with blast graphics of an airburst rather than ground impacts.

[Suhiir]

Depends shahadi.
I actually was an FO when I was on active duty, and while air bursts (VT) are GREAT vs troops or unarmored vehicles in the open they're much less effective vs dug-in anything or armored vehicles.
You need both available.

The in-game artillery generally represents a mix of impact-detonating and timed-detonating simply because the majority of players don't know (or care) about the difference.

Yes, the US, USMC, and British OOBs (and maybe a few others) have full VT artillery available, but if you look at it's stats it has less penetration then "normal" artillery. And frankly from experience I don't find it worth the extra cost (yes the VT units are quite a bit more expensive) to buy VT, but that's my opinion.

I'd much rather see some delayed-impact artillery because it would (at least in reality) be a lot more effective vs fortifications then the current game artillery is. But again, the standard game artillery is a compromise for the sake of playability/simplicity.

[shahadi]

Yes, and that brought it to my attention that the VT, slot 233 has the same AP and HE penetration as the FH and RA, however, the HE kill of the VT is twice that of the other two in game munitions. What am I missing here?